Ideas for more Grunt - 3SGTE?

[fivebob]

Actually I think we aren't going to be able to make any progress here because I feel that fundamentally we're coming at this from two different angles/points of view.

From your point of view - and forgive me if I misinterpret what you're getting at - it seems that it's the technical capabilities and extra functionality of the MoTeC system that are so important to a safely mapped engine?

For me the technical aspects of the ECU are actually secondary to the capability and knowledge of the person tuning/mapping the car. No matter how clever and technically advanced/excellent an ECU you have, it still can't save you from poor mapping/tuning, whereas with a capable ECU (such as the Haltech, Autronic, DTA, MoTeC etc) then a competant tuner can map the engine for power, economy and safety without the need for all the other "bells and whistles" as it were.

So are you saying if the same person who tunes your engine is familiar with Autronic, Haltech and Motec then you'd choose the Motec as it's the better ECU

This is just my own point of view on things and I doubt I'll convince you of the validity of what I'm saying anymore than you can convince me that the ONLY way to a safe and powerful engine is by using the MoTeC

Only because the validity of what you're saying relies on there being someone that knows why the 3S-GTE self destructs, and is able to tune around the danger areas. IMO this isn't possible with the Autronic as it's datalogging isn't sufficient and it's compenstations are limited. To extract the same HP as the Motec IMHO you will have a less reliable engine, to have an engine that is as reliable you will have less HP.

So, hows about we put this to bed - agree to disagree and move on?

Feel free to ignore this thread, but I didn't post just for your benefit so I will continue with the topic at hand, when I have time that is. Which these days is only a couple of hours per week so this may take some time.

Now I'll give you some hint as to what I believe is the main cause of 3S-GTE self destruction. Other than saying that the yellow trace is unfiltered manifold pressure (ignore the label), and the red trace is filtered data from the same sensor, I'll leave you to figure out what the relevance is

[Wolf_Tm250]

Datalogit provides access to all the maps and settings which the commander doesn't. Also provides the ability to log all the parameters and to interface and log additional sensors like wideband O2. Without datalogging you are going to have difficulty tuning the PowerFC properly. It's possible but not easy to do with the limited logging from the commander.

And why you're saying you can't tune a reliable high hp 3sgte with it ?

My definition of high HP & reliability (450HP & 100,000kms+) is not easy to achieve. There is no datalogging on the standard Power FC, and only limited logging with the Datalogit. Also with the lack of spare outputs for running things like water injection, thermo fans etc and only basic compensations available in the PowerFC I doubt you get the HP & reliability using this ECU. Should be OK to around 350, maybe even 400HP, but IMO any more than that and reliability becomes a bit of a lottery.

Ok, thank you.

Ciao ciao

[Farmer_dave]

I'll leave you to figure out what the relevance is

Still thinking

[Wolf_Tm250]

Hi fivebob,

I'm asking you because I see you know very well Motec products...

What do you think about the M4Pro for my modded 3rd gen engine ?

I can found it at a very good price, with a base map for my 850 injs.

Thank you, ciao ciao.

[fivebob]

Still thinking

Ok I'll give you a little clue. It's got to do with changes in Volumetric efficiency, and the area where the crosshairs is just before detonation occured in my map.

[fivebob]

Hi fivebob,

I'm asking you because I see you know very well Motec products...
What do you think about the M4Pro for my modded 3rd gen engine ?

I can found it at a very good price, with a base map for my 850 injs.

I don't really know my way around the M4/M48 models that well, but from what I've seen the M4 isn't the best choice for a turbo engine.

There are only 4 available spare outputs, 3 of which are shared with the ignition outputs. This means that you can really only run one ignition output (one coil, or an ignition expander if you want direct fire ignition). You need one spare output for the fuel pump control, and one for boost control, leaving two for things like thermo-fans, water injection, water spray, warning alarms, shift lights etc. It only has two spare sensor inputs so it limits the extra functions/datalogging you can use.

I would rate it as being the equivalent of an Autronic SMC and slightly better than your PowerFC. It should give better control of the 850cc injectors, but you will lose idle speed control (which isn't that important).

Features list can be found at http://www.capa.com.au/capa_performance_motec_m4.htm

As you can see from the prices at http://www.capa.com.au/prices_capa_perf ... capa_motec the M400 is only $AUS100 (about 60 Euro) more for the base unit and IMO is far superior. There are some additional costs with the M400 of about $AUS170 (100 Euro) for the CAN cable to program it if you're going to tune it yourself.

If you're buying a secondhand M4 you should also be aware that earlier models (serial # < 3000) require special cables for programming & a special device for firmware updates, the later ones use a standard RS232 serial cable.

IMO unless you are paying < 1000 Euro, for a secondhand base model with no options or logging, then it's probably not worth it, as there are unlikely to be further improvements to the DOS software and no Windows version. Bugs will be fixed but that's about all

[Wolf_Tm250]

I don't really know my way around the M4/M48 models that well, but from what I've seen the M4 isn't the best choice for a turbo engine.

There are only 4 available spare outputs, 3 of which are shared with the ignition outputs. This means that you can really only run one ignition output (one coil, or an ignition expander if you want direct fire ignition). You need one spare output for the fuel pump control, and one for boost control, leaving two for things like thermo-fans, water injection, water spray, warning alarms, shift lights etc. It only has two spare sensor inputs so it limits the extra functions/datalogging you can use.

I would rate it as being the equivalent of an Autronic SMC and slightly better than your PowerFC. It should give better control of the 850cc injectors, but you will lose idle speed control (which isn't that important).

Features list can be found at http://www.capa.com.au/capa_performance_motec_m4.htm

As you can see from the prices at http://www.capa.com.au/prices_capa_perf ... capa_motec the M400 is only $AUS100 (about 60 Euro) more for the base unit and IMO is far superior. There are some additional costs with the M400 of about $AUS170 (100 Euro) for the CAN cable to program it if you're going to tune it yourself.

If you're buying a secondhand M4 you should also be aware that earlier models (serial # < 3000) require special cables for programming & a special device for firmware updates, the later ones use a standard RS232 serial cable.

IMO unless you are paying < 1000 Euro, for a secondhand base model with no options or logging, then it's probably not worth it, as there are unlikely to be further improvements to the DOS software and no Windows version. Bugs will be fixed but that's about all

It's a new unit,

and I would go for it only for the base map already inside for my injectors...

but now I know it's not that better than my Power FC, so I'll have to go for M400...

Thank you.