Water to air intercooling, 180sx

[Twolitre]

You say the master plan with this car is to reach 100Km/h very quickly so how do expect it to do just that with little traction? S13's are popular drift car but if accelleration is what you're after than perhaps a GTi-R Pulsar?

[Vickrin]

Hey, im the owner of the 180sx, im just looking to make it somewhat bulletproof for occasional circuit, drag and drift use.
I agree that you cant make much of a drag car out of a 180sx.
So that makes it mainly for circuit and drift, thus the upping of compression for better all round performance and stronger bottom end response.

GT4 i have been reading your site about your rover like a bible. Great wee car from the looks of it.
Do you know who deals with aquamist stuff in NZ ?

[Stealer Of Souls]

A little off topic...

But for drift service, wouldn't a W/A IC be quite ideal? I mean you're not often going forwards so less air through a FMIC. Since a drift comp is limited laps (not like your doing 50laps or anything) you could use some iced water (store it in a good esky) for each run...

And on the plus side, W/A are great street intercoolers cause they have more consistent performance!

Just a thought...

[Tranquil]

Can anyone think of a modern competition car that utilises W/A ?
Beyond HP formulas e.g. drag and pulling. I cant recall any...

You could place the water res in cabin, of course you would then have to run longer return lines, secure these lines, utilise additional connectors. Longer lines means more water is required etc etc.
More things to go wrong and more weight. I cant see how the benefits of W/A outweigh the cons. UNLESS there’s simply no room for an effective a/a setup Its only the MR and RR's and the Lotus7 type specials who fit into this category.

>>Is the weight issue valid these days ?
Weight is half the equation !... Power/Weight

[Twolitre]

One advantage of water/air intercooling is that in most instances the inlet tract between the compressor and throttle body is very short reducing lag and increasing response, which is quite valuable to many especially on the street.
Plenty of drag cars also use water/air such as Ronnie Lims Integra

[Dr-X]

More weight is ALWAYS a bad thing (imo), especially when that weight is on top and/or in front of the suspension.

Well, that's far too much of a generalization. Extra weight of a turbo setup over a non turbo setup isnt bad, nor is a good sized nitrous bottle in the boot.

However, I do agree that w/a ic is a waste of time. Few competition cars use them, which should tell you something straight away.

[vvega]

More weight is ALWAYS a bad thing (imo), especially when that weight is on top and/or in front of the suspension.

Well, that's far too much of a generalization. Extra weight of a turbo setup over a non turbo setup isnt bad, nor is a good sized nitrous bottle in the boot.

However, I do agree that w/a ic is a waste of time. Few competition cars use them, which should tell you something straight away.

wrong quite a few compatition cars use them
many stick to air to air for simplisity

both methods are good just make a choice

v

[wde_bdy]

My car is being built for autocross, hillclimbs, drags and maybe some circuit work.
Current plan for the water to air setup is a tank behind passengers seat with a big coil of tubing through it for an ice tank. For normal use, the extra piping in the tank provides a larger supply of water and therefore more time to cool down. When racing, the tank can be filled with ice to bring temps well below what a front mount would achieve. You can chill the air too much so may need to put some kind of thermo switch on the pump based on inlet temp.
Just remember though, my car is likely to spend a lot of time at speeds below which an air to air would get good airflow. Will let you know how it works out when the car is finished.

Callum

[CozmoNz]

this is a street car though, we cant stick huge piping etc through the firewall and into the cabin etc.

i guess air to air it is :S

[vvega]

this is a street car though, we cant stick huge piping etc through the firewall and into the cabin etc.

i guess air to air it is :S

um wtf
what huge pipes

oh well

one day

v

[CozmoNz]

Current plan for the water to air setup is a tank behind passengers seat with a big coil of tubing through it for an ice tank. For normal use, the extra piping in the tank provides a larger supply of water and therefore more time to cool down. When racing, the tank can be filled with ice to bring temps well below what a front mount would achieve

sticking this behind the passengers seat, would require the water to travel into the engine bay to cool the intercooler, this would require at LEAST 2 pipes (one back there, one to the i/c), and it cant run through the floor, its gotta come through the firewall, you cant just *bend* the pipe through, like a peice of wire.....

meh, air to air!

[Tranquil]

More weight is ALWAYS a bad thing (imo), especially when that weight is on top and/or in front of the suspension.

Well, that's far too much of a generalization. Extra weight of a turbo setup over a non turbo setup isnt bad, nor is a good sized nitrous bottle in the boot.

However, I do agree that w/a ic is a waste of time. Few competition cars use them, which should tell you something straight away.

Good call..

How about, i do not believe the cost / benefit warrants the additional weight and complexity.

[Tranquil]

More weight is ALWAYS a bad thing (imo), especially when that weight is on top and/or in front of the suspension.

Well, that's far too much of a generalization. Extra weight of a turbo setup over a non turbo setup isnt bad, nor is a good sized nitrous bottle in the boot.

However, I do agree that w/a ic is a waste of time. Few competition cars use them, which should tell you something straight away.

wrong quite a few compatition cars use them
many stick to air to air for simplisity

both methods are good just make a choice

v

Can you site any examples beyond drag and pulling events ?

E.g. a FR setup that utilises W/A in a competition event AND consistently out performs the A/A equipped cars.

[wde_bdy]

sticking this behind the passengers seat, would require the water to travel into the engine bay to cool the intercooler, this would require at LEAST 2 pipes (one back there, one to the i/c), and it cant run through the floor, its gotta come through the firewall, you cant just *bend* the pipe through, like a peice of wire.....

meh, air to air!

The pipes will most likely be run through the current holes for the heater pipes and then run either along the tunnel or along the sill. Will just use normal heater hose. As I said this is for a competition car, however W to A can be just as good as A to A for some cars. It definitely worth considering compared to the costs of a big front mount.
Here is an interesting link on W to A where the guy set up a temporary ice tank. Could be quite useful at the track for some people. Personally I would route the hoses into the car differently though.

http://www.key-ideas.com/AirWaterIC.htm

Callum

[Stealer Of Souls]

Well after taking the weekend away from the computer... it's amazing how much of a fire fight I can incite just with one post...
ooops...

CosmoNZ:
Don't discount WA to easily. If you're running a street car the benefits make them equal to that of a AA. It then comes down to cost and effort. For a fast 0-100kph car, WA has some significant advantages. After idling at lights/stopped a AAIC will be heatsoaked, and possibly quite badly if you've been stopped a long time. And since you're not going to be going 100kph for all that long the FMIC might not even get to working efficiently. A WAIC will allow consistent temps even after idling/stopping, and for a short burst the temps will remain lower than that of a AAIC. Add some inguinuitive reserve cooling (ice, refridge, peltiers) you could do even better...
But just a thought/suggestion.


Purple_Beasty is right about the setups. My suggestion about remote mounting the reserve was meant more for race setup cars with no back seats and little reason for a passenger. As for routing pipes, you can buy flexible high temp hose. A couple of holes drilled into the floor pan could allow you to route piping under the car in the same way they do with car audio cabling (15-25mm diameter wiring).

I think WAIC has gotten a bad name. Competition moved to AAIC because of the simplicity, no pumps to break down, no hoses to burst. It had little to do with technical superiority of function. Just pure mechanical reliability during operation.
Also, how many race cars start and stop ever 5-10minutes. A race vehicle is much less likely to suffer from heatsoaked IC, or 'lag' due to intake volume. But we're talking a street car here.

But to end all arguement, go AA FMIC and join the crowds of people. And for those going WAIC like myself (when i can afford the turbo setup) are finished building, maybe we can run some comparatives to get a REAL LIFE idea on which functions better...
I'm guess a tie in the results...

[Vickrin]

I would really like to go water to air but the thing is, the price is prohibitive at this time. Ill have to start looking around to aluminium fabricators.
How big a core is prefered?
I have smallish cooler measuring about the same as a VR4 one jsut slightly longer. Could i get the end tanks taken off this and convert it to water to air ?
I like the uniqueness of water to air and the stealth factor.
Id rather not stick a front mount a/a like everyone else.
If anyone has some cheap bits for w/a like a pump, pre-rad then ill gladly buy them off u?

[Stealer Of Souls]

On Autospeed.com they converted a AAIC to WAIC by getting some plates welded onto the AA core along with all the necessary fittings to get water in and out. So core was put back into normal place (top mount), air flowed in normal path and water was pumped into the new sealed compartment. They used a pump from the wreckers. It was on a WRX but I can't find the article (GRRR). It worked quite well by all accounts. You could investigate doing this to the core you've got if you're on a budget.

What sort of budget have you got? Someone on this board is using an Davie Craig EWP (Electric Water Pump - about $250 brand new) to run their WA setup which technically should be quite good. But they were having troubles with the pump leaking water internally.

Had another thought... run both... Run WA first to drop the majority of the heat into and then run a AAFMIC for the added "close to ambient" intakes...

For a VERY radical idea. Run a WAIC before the turbo but use ice cold water (a specialised A/C setup could provide down time re-cooling). This way if the turbo increase intake temps by around 6 times (for example), and you can drop pre-turbo intake to 6degC then post turbo you'll only have approx 40degc. Nicer than 20degC going to 100+degC.
Not so sure this idea has any real merit. Can you cool pre-turbo intake fast enough to achieve temps more than 5-10 degC below ambient...