New Head Project for MR2 SW20

[RedRaurri]

Righto then......

I need to know if the 3GSE and 3GTSE use the same block.

If yes or no to the above, does someone have a print of the blockface/s, or has an opened engine that I can come look at please. My spare has not arrived yet, and I would like to get this project going. Please don't tell me to use a gasket!!!!!

I need to know where I can get a LARGE lump of engineers wax for carving a 'to be cast' item.

I need to know of someone who can cast aluminium - forgeworks.

I need to find a metalurgist.

I need someone who has a small home-based or shop-based lathe, who is willing to offer some time to a good cause. This will entail working the wax, and will not cost tooling - OR - somebody got a small benchtop lathe with toolpost for sale?

....and so we start.......

[Adamal]

There are slight differences like oil feeds.

[RedRaurri]

Is this based on placement or just size?

[Sexy MR2]

What exactly are you doing with the head? Which engine do you have/are modifing (3SGE or 3SGTE?)

I have a 3SGE and am looking at some sort of N/A upgrade, I have some pictures of my engine with the intake manifold off if they would help?

Keep us updated, pics rule

[Adamal]

I'm pretty sure that its different placement. Wouldn't be suprised if it were bigger feeds though.

[Sexy MR2]

Sorry, I found the other thread about what you're intending to do, sounds great to me. Its a pity you got so much flak, and so little encouragement.

Granted there are plenty of people out there who intend to do powerful mods to their engines on a students budget. But everyone can dream, all they really did was point out you were dreaming

[anthonym]

Sorry, I found the other thread about what you're intending to do, sounds great to me. Its a pity you got so much flak, and so little encouragement.

Could you please explain why a completely and utterly pointless "intention" should be encouraged? Or perhaps you have spent more time gathering technical knowledge about the 3S, or more hands on experience modifying them than I and others on this forum have and know something we don't? If so please enlighten us.

Granted there are plenty of people out there who intend to do powerful mods to their engines on a students budget. But everyone can dream, all they really did was point out you were dreaming

Dreams are free, but posting potentially misleading information just wastes everybody's time; personally I'd rather spend my time on this forum constructively rather than constantly having to argue against inanity .

[vvega]

as above

[Sexy MR2]

Could you please explain why a completely and utterly pointless "intention" should be encouraged? Or perhaps you have spent more time gathering technical knowledge about the 3S, or more hands on experience modifying them than I and others on this forum have and know something we don't? If so please enlighten us.

What does my technical knowledge of the 3S have to do with encouraging someone? If technical knowledge means spending more time surfing the internet and telling other people what they can or can't do, as opposed to actually doing hands on work, then i'll pass thanks.

I'd like to encourage him, I bet Mr Wankel got the same response when he said "I want to make the piston rotate" and this guy http://www.v8mr2.com/ got a large amount of "Why the hell would you bother" but his idea turned out to be awesome. So a bit less rude and a bit more constructive critisism wouldn't go a miss.

[anthonym]

What does my technical knowledge of the 3S have to do with encouraging someone? If technical knowledge means spending more time surfing the internet and telling other people what they can or can't do, as opposed to actually doing hands on work, then i'll pass thanks.

Your comprehension is somewhat lacking or did you forget your morning ritalin dose? Perhaps you might like to re-read my post. A few of us, including me, actually have done hands on work with the 3S. And no-one on this forum who has actual practical experience or technical expertise on this subject has endorsed building a desmodromic head for a 3S as a worthwhile project. Note my definition of worthwhile is providing improved HP and reliablity in excess of that which could be acheived with the standard head, not "OMFG I just sprayed my pants". The reason is plain and simple and has already been pointed out:

Err, why bother, the stock head will rev well enough with just a simple change to shimless buckets from a 1ZZ and some heavier springs, without the horrendous complication and cost of a desmo head.

I'd like to encourage him, I bet Mr Wankel got the same response when he said "I want to make the piston rotate" and this guy http://www.v8mr2.com/ got a large amount of "Why the hell would you bother" but his idea turned out to be awesome. So a bit less rude and a bit more constructive critisism wouldn't go a miss.

Could you please explain what is not constructive about the technical counter argument (summarised above) to building a desmodromic head for the 3S? I seem to have missed it. What's really rude, IMO, is the proponent of this idea ignoring the valid questions that have been raised, which hardly provides a basis for constructive debate.
And I'm sure both Felix (Dr Wankel to you) and Bill Strong would agree that correcting a problem that dosen't exist is a waste of time.

[fivebob]

What does my technical knowledge of the 3S have to do with encouraging someone? If technical knowledge means spending more time surfing the internet and telling other people what they can or can't do, as opposed to actually doing hands on work, then i'll pass thanks.

And just who in that other thread are you referring to? As far as I can see the people in that thread who were expressing doubts as to RedRaurri's credibility all have practical hands on knowledge of the 3S, are all long term owners of said engine, with a history of involvement in various email lists and discussion boards associated with it. So they've also learned from others experiences and seen enough BS posted to know what it smells/looks like.

I'd like to encourage him, I bet Mr Wankel got the same response when he said "I want to make the piston rotate" and this guy http://www.v8mr2.com/ got a large amount of "Why the hell would you bother" but his idea turned out to be awesome.

Seeing as ideas for rotary piston engine have been around since 1588, Dr Wankel's patent was not exactly a new idea, but I note it did take him from 1924 - 1957 to make the first viable engine, even then he had to change from his original DKM idea to a KKM because there were many problems with the DKM. As for Bill Strong's V8 conversion, I say good on him, at least he's someone who knows his subject and will provide proof the support his claims if asked.

So a bit less rude and a bit more constructive critisism wouldn't go a miss.

Let me reiterate what I said in the other thread. All that RedRaurri has to do it provide proof, from a reputable source, that's his claims are true and he will get all the help he requires. Hell, he can even just front up and say he was bullsh*tting and I'll still help him with any info I have on the 3S.

In order to get that help all he has to do is answer the following issues I have with his posts.

• How can you weld a conrod to increase it's strength?
• What is a "Nickelited" sleeve?
• What car did the 600ci Caddy engine come from?
• Why did you state that you built a Desmo head for a Mk2 1600 Escort in one post, then in the very next post say "1972 Mk1 Ford Escort. Ass kicking 1000 crank, O/S bore to 1230"
• How about some photos of your Desmo head, I can't find any on http://members1.chello.nl/~wgj.jansen

As to whether or no a Desmo head will give you any benefits then perhaps there may be some indication in that of all the companies that have tried it, including Cosworth, Ferrari, BRM, Maserati, Mercedes Benz, and Porsche, only Ducati persist with it. And a few quotes from some well respected engineers may also show why I don't think it's a viable idea.

BRM never built an engine with their system, intended for their 2.5 litre F1. 4 cylinder used 1954 to 1961. it was a double rocker system, one rocker opened and one closed like the Mercedes 8 cylinder of the same era. They built a rig and tested several configurations, all of which broke rockers. It was abandoned in 1955 when they began to expereince timing gear problems with the basic F1 engine for which it was intended. I personally never had much enthusiasm for it.

Desmodromics", Honda assured us, had been tried but abandoned because they proved less reliable and gave no more power, which was 38 bhp at 13,500 rpm for their two-fifty by TT time

[Sexy MR2]

And no-one on this forum who has actual practical experience or technical expertise on this subject has endorsed building a desmodromic head for a 3S as a worthwhile project. Note my definition of worthwhile is providing improved HP and reliablity in excess of that which could be acheived with the standard head, not "OMFG I just sprayed my pants".

Well, I have done some work, and have technical experience with the 3S, I doubt it is as much as others in this forum, but I'd like to encourage anyone who seeks to try something different. Maybe it itsn't worthwhile, but one way of finding out is to try. Call it an experiment.

Could you please explain what is not constructive about the technical counter argument (summarised above) to building a desmodromic head for the 3S? I seem to have missed it. What's really rude, IMO, is the proponent of this idea ignoring the valid questions that have been raised, which hardly provides a basis for constructive debate.

This I agree with you on, it would be nice to hear more about the idea from its origin. What I did find rude was the instant calls of BS before he was finished explaining (which he hasn't fully done yet)

What did you want to hear from him, "Hey i'm a rich guy who's going to spend $20,000 to get my engine to 500hp" wow, that could get boring quickly.

But it all seems to be a game of find a post and pick holes in it, so here goes..

And I'm sure both Felix (Dr Wankel to you) and Bill Strong would agree that correcting a problem that dosen't exist is a waste of time.

I'm sure he would be Dr Wankel to you too, unless you know him personally, which might be difficult after his death in 1988. So now the proper title would be 'the late Dr Wankel'. In my original post I refered to him as Mr Wankel as that was his title when he conceived the idea of a rotary engine, he was awarded an honourary doctorate 45 years later.

You find me a problem that doesn't exist, that someone has fixed, and explain to me why it was a waste of time?

How'd I do? I hope I didn't come across as a rotary lover, pretentious wanker is ok though (hmm, maybe they're the same thing). I didn't mean to get anyone angry or start an argument, the last thing i'd want to do is alienate a group of fellow toyota enthusiast who i'd hope to seek help and advice on 3S's in the future

Good on those who gave/offered advice and critisism, I guess I just wanted to see more people say "go for it". I have some ideas/dreams of my own to do to my 3S, and now know to research well before jumping on here without all the facts and getting flamed.

[anthonym]

Well, I have done some work, and have technical experience with the 3S, I doubt it is as much as others in this forum, but I'd like to encourage anyone who seeks to try something different. Maybe it itsn't worthwhile, but one way of finding out is to try. Call it an experiment.

Actually no, trying ideas willy nilly without researching the findings of those who have gone before you; or worse, failing to engage in rational debate and not responding to valid questions is almost invariably a waste of time. No competent scientist engages in research without carefully evaluating previous data in the particular area under study. Scuttling off to hide after pretending to be clever and suddenly finding yourself floating out to sea is not particularly constructive either.

I'm sure he would be Dr Wankel to you too, unless you know him personally, which might be difficult after his death in 1988. So now the proper title would be 'the late Dr Wankel'. In my original post I refered to him as Mr Wankel as that was his title when he conceived the idea of a rotary engine, he was awarded an honourary doctorate 45 years later.
How'd I do? I hope I didn't come across as a rotary lover,

No, you come across as someone who can use Google; a valuable skill indeed.

Good on those who gave/offered advice and critisism, I guess I just wanted to see more people say "go for it". I have some ideas/dreams of my own to do to my 3S, and now know to research well before jumping on here without all the facts and getting flamed.

Again, I'd ask you to work on your comprehension; if you read the thread properly there is no flaming until after RedRaurri fails to respond to valid questions about his idea. If you want to share an idea to find out if it has merit you are unlikely to be flamed here. OTOH if your idea is a pretext for showing how desperately clever you are, you are likely to be called out.

[vvega]

get yaself a ducati desmo head and start from there
there expesive to manintain (every 5-6000 kms for a reshim)
and cost mucho dollaro just to keep fucntional

i fail to see why you sould go this way when phematic springs would end up been cheaper and less hassel

to be honest your talking a 20k + head to build
if youer doing a one off head would also be cheaper to mill from a a solid billiat

casting is not recomended for one off items but if you wanna make 100 or so it would start to ofset the costs of die making

theh theres ther tempering of the head
theres only 4 places in n\z where you can have that happen and trusdt me to average joe thats not cheap

arh well theres some constuctive thoughts

v