ST185 - a few questions..

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ST185 - a few questions..

Postby RS13 » Sun May 01, 2005 2:25 am

Before you flame, I've searched, but information on here is so damn all over the show, I'm sure someone could just give me the info I need.

I've just purchased a 1990 GT4, 160,000kms. She's as stock as a rock, save for an HKS filter, and a GFB boost controller. So..
1. What are weak points of these cars? I know the engine needs to be maintained religiously, as any degradation of oil leads to run bigend bearings etc, would I be ok using a Nulon oil additive as peace of mind, as well as a decent synthetic oil? Are the gearboxes/diffs any good at handling the "thrash" (big revs), or reasonable power output? Clutch is newish.. standard though.

2. How to get a tad more power reliably out of the 3S, keeping the standard top-mounted interwarmer, without opening the motor? I'd assume a decent dump-pipe, with a free-flowing system.. and winding 10psi(ish) into it.. what are the limitations boost-wise of the CT26? Is it able to be high-flowed? Or would it be more cost-effective moving up to the "CT20B"? Or would this result in me picking pieces of piston out of the sump?

3. Handling.. I've been told these things tend to understeer like a whale on ice, how to combat this cheaply? King springs, thicker front/rear anti-sway bar?

4.. more a question for those who have worked on 185's.. Cambelt is due to be replaced, do I need to pull the motor/box, or am I able to do it with the motor in? Will replace waterpump at same time..

5. Times.. I am aware that these fat bastards run mid 15's/16's out of the box.. I'm not after a 13-sec beast, but a reasonably fast, reliable 14-sec 1/4 would be outstanding! What would it take?

6. Aaaaand.. I want to install an atmosphere-venting BOV. Where do I put it? :D

Any help would be much appreciated, to get the ball rolling.. :D
Daily driver: Toyota RunX/Toyota Caldina
Ex: 2x AE101, 5x KP60, KP61, EP71, 3x KE70, KE72, AE70, AE82, 2x TE71, AE90, AE92, ST170, plus 11 Hondas, 12 Nissans, 6 Fords, 4 Mazdas, 3 Mitsis, an Isuzu and a Lada!

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Postby RedMist » Sun May 01, 2005 10:35 am

1. Clutch diaphram, synchros especially on second, rear diff carrier, head gasket (I think these things run rather hot), water pump, then there are the general maintenance items such as suspension bushes bearings etc.
2. Never bothered with my miniture tank.
3. I hated the handling on my St185. Its 4wd system just tends to make it unpredictable on the edge. Depending on how hot the viscous is or what surface you are on it will switch drive front or rear and understeer or oversteer chronically. Its a car for the straight line or nice gradual cornering.
4. Apparently Vvega has done it with the engine in place. However in the same breath he stated it would have been just as fast if he pulled the engine and box. I cant understand how the hell he did it as the covers ar pushed hard up against the right strut tower. Drop the engine and box, you'll need the practice. While your at it check the tension ring on the clutch diaphram.
5. A fuggin big holesaw and a rain jacket.
6. In a hydrolic press. Notice that race cars dont bother venting to atmosphere anymore. Last time I heard a pssssst out of a real car was in the 80's. To boot it also sounds real shitty. (ELMO if you race that bloody Delta in RallySport Challenge again, I'll kick your chubby white arse!!)

If you havent gathered by now my experiences with the 185 werent good. Its not a drivers car, its heavy, slow, doesnt corner, and is by far the most unreliable car I have EVER owned. And I'm a grumpy old man so I'll let you guess as to how many cars I've owned.
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Re: ST185 - a few questions..

Postby GT4 20 » Sun May 01, 2005 11:06 am

RS13 wrote: would I be ok using a Nulon oil additive as peace of mind, as well as a decent synthetic oil?


Waste of money using an additive. Oil companies spend millions on R&D. If the aftermarket additive was so good, why is it not already incorporated into the oil in the first place? Just use a decent quality oil (I use Castrol RS 10w 60) and a Toyota oil filter and you'll be fine with regular changes.

RS13 wrote:3. Handling.. I've been told these things tend to understeer like a whale on ice, how to combat this cheaply? King springs, thicker front/rear anti-sway bar?


Whiteline do an uprated rear sway bar. Both 'normal' and an adjustable type. Dials out the inherant understeer issues. Will be getting one for my ST205 at some stage.
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Postby RedMist » Sun May 01, 2005 1:50 pm

From my understanding the ST205 is a totally and utterly different kettle of salmon when it comes to handling. It apparently doesnt handle half bad.
Isn't the center diff torsen?
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Postby RS13 » Sun May 01, 2005 2:06 pm

So basically, 185's are unreliable pieces of shit?

The only problem with my GT4, the clutch needs to be mashed to the firewall, and still I have to force it into gear. When you release the clutch to take up drive, it engages about 5mm off the firewall.. and to change gear while moving, it needs to be mashed again, and its' real hard to get into any gear, requiring a fair bit of force. The harder you mash it, the slightly easier it is to get into gear, but not much easier.. crunches a little into 3rd gear too.

The former owner reckoned it had just had a bleed, suggested maybe the clutch needed adjusting at the pedal? I assumed the seals were bung on the master/slave cylinders? Or is this sound quite serious, requiring removal of the gearbox? The clutch was replaced with a standard unit around 30,000km ago, it doesn't slip at all, bites real good. Would it have anything to do with the "tension ring"?

I haven't actually paid for the car yet, would I be better just giving it back to him? :? Its' fine otherwise, no noises, blows no smoke, a little chuffy but nothing serious, had regular services..

Any help, much appreciated. Cheers!
Daily driver: Toyota RunX/Toyota Caldina
Ex: 2x AE101, 5x KP60, KP61, EP71, 3x KE70, KE72, AE70, AE82, 2x TE71, AE90, AE92, ST170, plus 11 Hondas, 12 Nissans, 6 Fords, 4 Mazdas, 3 Mitsis, an Isuzu and a Lada!

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Re: ST185 - a few questions..

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 01, 2005 2:43 pm

1. What are weak points of these cars? I know the engine needs to be maintained religiously, as any degradation of oil leads to run bigend bearings etc, would I be ok using a Nulon oil additive as peace of mind, as well as a decent synthetic oil? Are the gearboxes/diffs any good at handling the "thrash" (big revs), or reasonable power output? Clutch is newish.. standard though.

Yeah big ends are a big problem, also the ceramic wheels on the turbos like to let go. Other than that, often quite leaky from the valve cover gasket, and sometimes front & rear main seals. My gearbox (rear output shaft to be precise) let go after a couple of trips to Meremere, with only around 300hp but several hard launches. Other people have had much better luck though, with well over 400hp on stock gearbox with no worries. The only real problem with stockish hp is the syncros, as already mentioned.

2. How to get a tad more power reliably out of the 3S, keeping the standard top-mounted interwarmer, without opening the motor? I'd assume a decent dump-pipe, with a free-flowing system.. and winding 10psi(ish) into it.. what are the limitations boost-wise of the CT26? Is it able to be high-flowed? Or would it be more cost-effective moving up to the "CT20B"? Or would this result in me picking pieces of piston out of the sump?

Yes, good downpipe and exhaust are a must. The factory intake isn't terrible but would benefit from a good panel filter and improved air supply to the airbox. Boost should be safe around 12psi (check your timing first and set it to 8 degrees BTDC), many people have run higher on the stock turbo and ecu etc without problems, but in the name of reliability 12 would be sensible. It can be high flowed but IMHO it's not that big of an upgrade for the $$, CT20b is an equally good option, and if you can pick up a steel one in good condition for a reasonable price (around $700) then go for it, otherwise you can buy brand new from Revhead for about $1500 I think, which is also a good option. The stock intercooler really is terrible for anything other than open road driving. Think about at the least a fan on top (look up SPAL fans), but you would be well advised to either try and source a w/a unit, or go front mount, IMHO. The internals of the motor are actually quite strong, the weak link is the stock headgasket but I've known that to withstand some decent punishment (18psi for 2 years of daily driving!) without blowing.

3. Handling.. I've been told these things tend to understeer like a whale on ice, how to combat this cheaply? King springs, thicker front/rear anti-sway bar?

Whiteline sell a complete kit that's supposed to be a huge improvement. Lower/stiffer springs, harder shocks, thicker rear sway bar, camber bolts for the front.

4.. more a question for those who have worked on 185's.. Cambelt is due to be replaced, do I need to pull the motor/box, or am I able to do it with the motor in? Will replace waterpump at same time..

It's quite easy to do it with the engine in, you have to remove the cambelt end engine mount which is no biggie (support the engine with a jack or jack stand), the hardest part is removing the rearmost bolt on the upper cambelt cover, once that's off it's a piece of piss, and should take around an hour to do (i don't know what all the fuss is about!). Water pump is also a good idea, I changed my cambelt without doing the pump and it started leaking literally a week later, although I'm pretty sure I'm one of the only people to change a water pump on a 3sgte without taking the cambelt off any other pulleys or having to reset the timing :D wouldn't hurt to do the thermostat at the same time.

5. Times.. I am aware that these fat bastards run mid 15's/16's out of the box.. I'm not after a 13-sec beast, but a reasonably fast, reliable 14-sec 1/4 would be outstanding! What would it take?

Well my mate Tim (gtstarped) had one with a stock turbo, a good exhaust, RC w/a intercooler, and running about 16psi managed a 13.9. The stock intercooler is the main reason why they do terrible times from factory, also you need to make sure you shift well before redline as power drops off above about 6,500rpm on the stock turbo and revving higher makes your times much worse


6. Aaaaand.. I want to install an atmosphere-venting BOV. Where do I put it? :D

on the stock IC you need to cut a hole in the curved pipe on the inlet and weld a flange on. Easy as. Recirc isn't a bad idea though
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Postby Malcolm » Sun May 01, 2005 2:45 pm

sounds like the pedal travel needs adjusting. it's a bit of a prick of a job, get a chilton's manual for it, describes the process quite well I believe.
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Postby GT4 20 » Sun May 01, 2005 6:19 pm

Pedal travel is easy to adjust if it's the same as on the ST205. You may well need a new flywheel/clutch by the sounds of it. Flywheel has probably worn down along with clutch which prevents easy selection of gears. Similar issue with mine. Off to Oz in a few weeks and while I'm tehre will be picking up a lightened flywheel and uprated clutch assembly.
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Postby RedMist » Sun May 01, 2005 6:47 pm

If its my old car, and I suspect it it. Its actually the pedal box. Its torn from the firewall, I had it stitched back on, but it never worked correctly after that... one of the many many reasons I got rid of that car.
And if you notice it shunting while changing gear or while on and off the accl its the rear diff mount. Its non - existant.
I sold that car for next to nothing with a blown freeze plug in the head.
The answer is Helmholtz!

Toyota ST185 Celica Rally.
Toyota ST205 Celica Rally.
Jimco/ Cosworth 350z Offroader - 609whp at 16psi
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Postby Zak » Sun May 01, 2005 6:56 pm

Maybe it was a good think I never bought that car off you 8O
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Postby RedMist » Sun May 01, 2005 7:15 pm

I should have sold it then, as it was I wasnt concerned... it shat all over me shortly after you had a look! and then again... and again... and then I sold it as a going concern.
That car made me buy an Audi... thats how bad it was.
The answer is Helmholtz!

Toyota ST185 Celica Rally.
Toyota ST205 Celica Rally.
Jimco/ Cosworth 350z Offroader - 609whp at 16psi
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Postby RS13 » Sun May 01, 2005 7:23 pm

Ah yup.. I've been told that any work on these cars is an absolute bastard, and I don't want to have to spend megabucks getting stuff fixed before I can reliably drive it to work and back, so I've decided not to buy it.

In fact, about 30mins ago, I purchased a GTS-t. :D

So thanks for all the help guys, your fantastic information saved me making a really bad purchase! Sometimes its too easy not to look past the snail in the engine bay.. your information will be valuable to other GT4 owners.

Thanks again! :D
Daily driver: Toyota RunX/Toyota Caldina
Ex: 2x AE101, 5x KP60, KP61, EP71, 3x KE70, KE72, AE70, AE82, 2x TE71, AE90, AE92, ST170, plus 11 Hondas, 12 Nissans, 6 Fords, 4 Mazdas, 3 Mitsis, an Isuzu and a Lada!

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Postby vvega » Sun May 01, 2005 7:25 pm

pedal travel can also be thrust bearings
it was a factory recall on some 165 and 185's as the thrusts were put in backwards from the factory :d

they also have quite a heavy clutch as stock and so are quite hard on the thrust's regardless

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Postby flygt4 » Sun May 01, 2005 7:30 pm

hahahahah so so true.redmist nailed nearly every issue i had with my old 185.
clutches,synchros,cracked pedal box,rear diff mount bushings...
they actually arent that heavy a car , mine weighed at 1450kg , bout the same as the other 4wd turbos from that era , ie vr4,legacy rs etc latemodel evos and wrx's fall around the same weight .
i never found mine to understeer too bad , it had a nice touch of unpredictable oversteer which was just enough to keep you on your toes.was much nicer to drive than my old vr4
they can be made to go quite nicely in near stock trim.with just a bigger exhaust , free'd up intake , a fuel cut defender and bout 14-15 psi they are pretty capable cars for their age.
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