ST215w caldina GTT ignition technical specs required.

[fivebob]

I see from your posts on the emanage group that you have read http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/EmanageFAQ.txt however you seem to have missed this bit of relevant info;

3. The E-manage is not universal. You cannot create your own rotary switch combination. It is factory preset with a range of cars.

As there is no other Toyota with COP ignition and a MAP sensor, then you may be out of luck, and it will not work on the GT-T

BTW based on the above settings for the ST205 (which has in effect the same MAP sensor) the settings should be 4-4-1

[fivebob]

you have a 2 bar map sensor


well the gt-t one i had was

Then it must have been fscked, as the GT-T one is a 2.8 Bar sensor, same as the Gen III.

Why on earth would you have a 2 Bar sensor when the specs say that the stock boost can be as high as 2.1 Bar absolute (1.1 Bar Boost)

[TWSTD]

you have a 2 bar map sensor
v

I beg to differ. Here are the MAP sensor output voltages generated from various input pressure ranges:

500mmHg --> 1.0-1.6v
Atmospheric --> 2.0-2.6v
0.7 kgf/cm2 --> 3.0-3.6v
1.4kgf/cm2 --> 4.0-4.6v

[vvega]

yeah i was a bit dissapointed with that as well five bob
but the haltech read it as a 2 bar wierd aye

though in saying that after 6 months of use it died so i agree with what your saying about it been a bit rooted

i now have a old gt starlet one and that reads the same at the same setting :S

himm werid stuff
ill send ya the old gtt one id ya want fivebob still works just reads erratically sometimes

v

[TWSTD]

Here are the japanese manual wiring pages. As you can see the SXE10 (which is also COP ignition) code ia 4-2-0 and the ST205 is 2-4-1 hence as you deduced, the caldina should theoretically be 4-4-1 (which is what i have it set on) - but you may be right that it will not work despite what i had previouslly been told by gizzmo.

[fivebob]

Here are the japanese manual wiring pages. As you can see the SXE10 (which is also COP ignition) code ia 4-2-0 and the ST205 is 2-4-1 hence as you deduced, the caldina should theoretically be 4-4-1 (which is what i have it set on) - but you may be right that it will not work despite what i had previouslly been told by gizzmo.

As 4-4-1 is not a valid setting, and assuming that these settings must map to a engine known by the EManage, then it's likely that it won't work at all

The only thing I could suggest is to look for another engine that uses 4 COP and a map sensor (preferably close in reading to the Toyota one), and use that setting. It may not be ideal, as the load points that the EManage uses would not be accurate, but, as you're only trying to alter the existing ignition/fuel map, knowing the exact point is not really necessary.

[fivebob]

Hmmm, I've just looked at the manuals and unfortunately there is no engine that maps to what you require, there are only Toyotas with 4 COPs and none of them use Pressure sensors.

While it might be possible to set it up as wasted spark, I don't advise it as the coils would probably overheat, and given that it would have to be a non-Toyota engine setting (the only one I could find is a Daihatsu), that is just diverging too far from the actual engine for comfort.

IMHO the best course of action would be to confirm that the settings must map to a known engine, and if this is the case, sell it and buy a real EMS

[TWSTD]

There dont seem to be ANY other vehicles listed that run COP and a MAP sensor. There are the 1NZ-FE, 2NZ-FE, 1SZ-FE toyotas or some of the mitsis and nissans, but none of which use MAP.

The terms "flogging" and "dead horse" come to mind.

Back to square 1.

[vvega]

Hmmm, I've just looked at the manuals and unfortunately there is no engine that maps to what you require, there are only Toyotas with 4 COPs and none of them use Pressure sensors.

While it might be possible to set it up as wasted spark, I don't advise it as the coils would probably overheat, and given that it would have to be a non-Toyota engine setting (the only one I could find is a Daihatsu), that is just diverging too far from the actual engine for comfort.

IMHO the best course of action would be to confirm that the settings must map to a known engine, and if this is the case, sell it and buy a real EMS

are your sure it dosent already run wasted spark anyways to help it with emmisions ??

v

[fivebob]

are your sure it dosent already run wasted spark anyways to help it with emmisions ??

Hmmm, let's see, four coils, four ignition outputs, four returns from the ignitor... yes I'm sure it doesn't run wasted spark.

And what's this about emissions? Wasted spark has nothing to do with emissions, perhaps you've got it confused with multi-spark.

[vvega]

ive been told that having a spark on the exhaust stroke can help burn any left over combustables and help spool as well (i was told this during my apentichip so really never questioned it )

i didnt mean wasted spark as in one coil to plug i ment it as it would still spark twice on each plug

it would be hard to know unless you attually tested for it
they would not be the only company to do this

a test would be to stick a revcounter on the coil and see if it reads a 1 signal or 2

just for intrests sake

v

[TWSTD]

Well it looks like we (almost) have this thing up and running as it should be! I say almost because:

1) Turns out the E-manage blue is not compatible with the caldinas combination of pressure sensor and ignition type

2) We chganged to the new E-manage Ultimate - which IS compatible with the caldina.

3) For some reason the EMU is not passing on the MAP sensor signal - hence illuminated CEL and error code 31 (Map sensor). Upon checking, it appears to be going into the EMU but not coming out - will have to look into this as i have no idea why. It may actually be irrelevant - we can still trim fuel through the injector map - it may well work if we just T into the Map sensor line so the EMU recieves that signal, but with this newer Ultimate im not sure theres actually a need to alter the outgoing MAP signal?

Interresting note - car would not start with the ignition output set to 5V - only when we switched to 12V would it start. This seems contradictory to the wiring diagrams i have however... fivebob your thoughts?

[fivebob]

may well work if we just T into the Map sensor line so the EMU recieves that signal, but with this newer Ultimate im not sure theres actually a need to alter the outgoing MAP signal?

According to the wiring diagrams you cannot share the MAP sensor output without affecting the reading, though given my understanding of how the MAP sensor works this doesn't seem right. However, to be on the safe side, if you can't get the signal to pass through the E-Manage, then you'll need a separate sensor for the E-Manage.

Interresting note - car would not start with the ignition output set to 5V - only when we switched to 12V would it start. This seems contradictory to the wiring diagrams i have however... fivebob your thoughts?

Not only is it contrary to the wiring diagrams, it also disagrees with the diagnostics info that I have, which clearly shows a 5v signal. Though, without putting it on an oscilloscope, I can't say for sure what the Toyota, or indeed the E-Manage is actually putting out. However it is a well known fact that the Caldina COPs are very sensitive to voltage and dwell time and the resultant overheating if either are excessive, so if you start getting ignition breakdown after the engine warms up then you know where to look.

[TWSTD]

According to the wiring diagrams you cannot share the MAP sensor output without affecting the reading, though given my understanding of how the MAP sensor works this doesn't seem right. However, to be on the safe side, if you can't get the signal to pass through the E-Manage, then you'll need a separate sensor for the E-Manage.

Im not sure I understood - are you saying that if I T into (share) the output voltage from the MAP sensor that it will affect the voltage of this signal? If this is the case, I also have a Greddy MAP sensor (came with my greddy boost gauge) which we could use - but would tapping into that signal also affect the sensors output?

Not only is it contrary to the wiring diagrams, it also disagrees with the diagnostics info that I have, which clearly shows a 5v signal. Though, without putting it on an oscilloscope, I can't say for sure what the Toyota, or indeed the E-Manage is actually putting out. However it is a well known fact that the Caldina COPs are very sensitive to voltage and dwell time and the resultant overheating if either are excessive, so if you start getting ignition breakdown after the engine warms up then you know where to look.

Fair enough. Worst case scenario is i destroy a coil (or 4) right? I will attempt to get over to my old mans place this weekend as he has an osciliscope and see whats actually being output by the e-manage on those ignition signal lines.

[fivebob]

According to the wiring diagrams you cannot share the MAP sensor output without affecting the reading, though given my understanding of how the MAP sensor works this doesn't seem right. However, to be on the safe side, if you can't get the signal to pass through the E-Manage, then you'll need a separate sensor for the E-Manage.

Im not sure I understood - are you saying that if I T into (share) the output voltage from the MAP sensor that it will affect the voltage of this signal? If this is the case, I also have a Greddy MAP sensor (came with my greddy boost gauge) which we could use - but would tapping into that signal also affect the sensors output?

Not quite, The ECU has a pull up resistor to 5v. When the sensor is connected to the ECU it has a different voltage than when it's not attached to anything, but, as I haven't done any electronics since I left school nearly 30 years ago, I'm unable to quantify the change in signal voltage that this would produce, which is probably only minor.

As this voltage difference is probably very small, and provided the E-Manage has the same circuit ,then all that will happen is both devices will read a slightly higher value. So the ECUs will assume that the pressure is higher than it really is, and will run richer and less advanced. Which at least is safe, if not entirely accurate. Better to get the E-Manage to pass the signal through, or seeing as you're not going to alter the signal, even better to use a seperate sensor for the E-Manange.

Fair enough. Worst case scenario is i destroy a coil (or 4) right? I will attempt to get over to my old mans place this weekend as he has an osciliscope and see whats actually being output by the e-manage on those ignition signal lines.

You should also check the output from the ECU to the E-Manange and make sure that the output from the E-Manage is the same in both duration and amplitude.

[vvega]

if im reading correctly your saying your feeding the coil packs 5v ???
they have three wires
power earth and trigger

Quote:
Interresting note - car would not start with the ignition output set to 5V - only when we switched to 12V would it start. This seems contradictory to the wiring diagrams i have however... fivebob your thoughts?

just dosent sound right to me
the voltage regulator to do this would have to be massive

i can understand the map sesor getting 5v and the tps as well
but not the coil packs
typically they have a direct 12v feed a earth and a trigger

would also explain why giving the coils 12v makes the car fire

just my thoughts from the many cars ive had to wire up and wire in ecu's

v

[fivebob]

if im reading correctly your saying your feeding the coil packs 5v ???
they have three wires
power earth and trigger

No, they have four wires +12v, Earth, IGF (Ignitor trigger) & ION (Ignitor Return). The Ignitor is built into the coil pack, the signal is square wave 0-5v according to all the documentation I have been able to find. The internal trigger from the ignitor to the coil is probably 12v or more depending on the ignitor circuit.

just dosent sound right to me
the voltage regulator to do this would have to be massive

i can understand the map sesor getting 5v and the tps as well
but not the coil packs
typically they have a direct 12v feed a earth and a trigger

would also explain why giving the coils 12v makes the car fire

just my thoughts from the many cars ive had to wire up and wire in ecu's

No it doesn't explain anything, the specs say that it's 0-5v signal to the ignitor, all the diagnostics documentation for any Toyota COP pack I can find say the same thing, the signal level is 5v. Even the wiring diagram shows the IGF transistor connected to 5v.

The only thing that may explain it is if the E-Manage isn't providing a full 5v signal (or not a long enough duration) therefore the ignitor is just ignoring it as noise and changing to 12v allows it to pass it's arming threshold.

Here is the waveform that they should be getting (2v & 10ms per major division, ) from which it can easily be seen that the signal is 0-5v

[vvega]

no you cannot see that it is clearly 5v it has no scale on the side of the graph
if i take your word for it is more like 4.5 volts than 5
it also indicate a 5m/s dwell which seams to be a standerd for toyota ignitors

read what i said fivebob
i never said the trigger was 12v
i got the impression that he was powering the ignitor with 12v

i think i have missunderstood what he was saying

thanks for reading my post thoughtfully before attacking it
but im becomming to expect that from you of late


v

[TWSTD]

This avo we got out the scope and found:

1) Factory ECU ignitor output signal was definitely 5V.
2) With the E-manage Ultimate jumpers set for 5V ignition output and either pull up or pull down type the car will not start.
3) With the E-manage Ultimate jumpers set for 12V ignition the car starts and runs fine (but only with jumpers set to pull down type).
4) When we had the jumpers set to pull down type and 12V output the scope showed - low and behold - a 5V outrput signal from the E-manage.

From the above I have concluded something that I already knew. The Emanage and Emanage Ultimate manuals are about as accurate as a blind archer and usefull as tits on a bull.... go figure!

I also tested tapping into the MAP sensor signal line and it appears to make absolutely no difference to the voltage output of the sensor whether the EMU input line is "T'd" into this signal wire or not - which is good. Hopefully I can just run the EMU with a MAP signal input and it shouldnt actually need to alter the MAP sensor output at all since there are individual injector drivers built in to the unit anyhow.

[TWSTD]

Just an update in case anyone else intends to run an E-manage Ultimate in their caldina, version 1.06b soft/firmware fixed the killing of the map signal... so shes all up n running and booked for a dyno tune on wednesday :-0)