Got Hole?

[2LTR Rona]

thanks for the negative feed back, we were working with your father to try and resolve the issue.

looks like caldinaGTT shot himself in the foot...

Surely not

[Adamal]

*Waits eagerly for CaldinaGTT's reply...*

[fivebob]

Ok guys it's easy to jump on caldinagtt and by his past record immediately lay blame at his feet. But how about we take an unbiased view of the whole subject and perhaps we can all learn from this.

the car has been on the road for the last 3 or so months, down the drag strip and who knows where else.

From that statement it seems that the car hasn't been back to your workshop since it was originally tuned. If that's the case then blaming your tune for the failure is even more ridiculous than it first appears.

Brian was made aware of all the problems that were apperent, and told not to take the boost any higher than 14psi, as at 7000rpm, injectors were reacing 95%duty cycle.

this car was made safe when it left our shop, and we have dyno sheets to prove it, seeing as he wanted it leaned out, for more power.

Is this the dyno sheet you refer to as your "proof"

If so then would you care to explain why the car is so rich off boost?

Also isn't the 95% duty cycle @ 7000rpm due to the overly rich 10.5:1 mixture, and would be fixed by leaning the engine out above 6500rpm? FWIW the stock injectors will not exceed 90% duty cycle until about 7800rpm if tuned for 12:1.

has anyone looked at the $100 fuel reg??? or the factory fuel pump thats done over 100,000kms???

Seeing as the AFR is below 11:1 at 7000rpm, surely you would concede that both the fuel pump and regulator were doing their job adequately?

Also the stock Toyota pump is more than enough for the 550cc injectors, unless the base fuel pressure was raised to ridiculously high levels. I assume you checked the base fuel pressure before you started tuning the engine, if so then do you recall what the figure was. If you didn't check it then why not, especially as you seem dubious about the fuel system.

and to throw a leg at idle, as we were told, yeah right.

At Idle??? Whilst not impossible, given the failure mode of 3S-GTE engines, it certainly strains credulity.

Now I have some other questions which arose when Brian posted his dyno sheet. If you could be so kind as to answer/comment on these.

I don't think the Haltech E6-X is a good match to the Caldina engine, given the COP setup and the unsupported crank trigger setup. Who recommended this as a suitable ECU?

The Haltech E6-X only supports 36-1 Motronic mode, how does this work with the Toyota's 36-2 trigger wheel?

Is it possible that the timing could become somewhat random due to the sync trigger not being identified correctly?

Is it possible that the Batch fire/multipoint injection could cause one cylinder to run leaner than the others? Not that this would make it excessively lean given the overall "rich" tune of the engine, but if the engine was leaned out this may become an issue.

[vvega]

just out of intrest what was the revlimiter set too ??

v

[RomanV]

Wot im after is a short block for the gtt urgently as i would like my car back by xmas so i can get it ready for the nats if anyone can help out it would be greatly appreciated.
cheers
brian.

Just something to note... (stating the painfully obvious here?)
If I were you, I wouldnt even be THINKING about racing it.... Until all of the problems have been sorted.

Its going to end in tears, (again) if you just whack in another block.

[Raw_Motorworx]

If so then would you care to explain why the car is so rich off boost?

Also isn't the 95% duty cycle @ 7000rpm due to the overly rich 10.5:1 mixture, and would be fixed by leaning the engine out above 6500rpm? FWIW the stock injectors will not exceed 90% duty cycle until about 7800rpm if tuned for 12:1.
Quote:

well, the sheet doesn't show cruising mixtures, just the load transition, from 4 psi onwards, off boost?? where??

i would also like to point out that the wideband used was shuved up the bum for the dyno, ours was less than 20cm away from the turbo.

rich up top?? what happens when the boost gets turned up, as you can just about guarentee it will.

this car had a few problems, and we made sure it will be safe.

The Haltech E6-X only supports 36-1 Motronic mode, how does this work with the Toyota's 36-2 trigger wheel?

no it doesn't. the e6 is capable of running anything from rx7 to evo, and includes the caldina.
Standard Trigger Full Cycle, with home on the CAM
24 +1 Multi-Tooth trigger (Honda, Toyota)
Nissan Trigger
Motronic with home signal on the CAM
Subaru
Subaru MY01
the ecu can also compensate for variations, by changing the trigger angle and tooth offset.

multipoint injection fires all injectors at once, how can this cause a cylinder to run lean??

we are an autherised haltech agent, and wouldnt use them if they couldnt do the job.

we have installed and tuned over 20 systems in the last year, this includes 2 10 sec evos. and an 11 sec libero.

there is no need for all the negativity on these forums, they are here to help people, not act as a place for everyone to hate each other.

at the end of the day, an engine wont last forever

[caldinagtt]

well for starters i can tell u it had a walbro 255l ph fuel pump i bought it from twstd and had it installed as well as a $300 rising rate fpr which i have receipts for and the installation of them to. I have done everything rawmotorwox has told me to do i got them to put a clutch in the car was told dont give it shit for a 1000k so i didnt i was told dont turn the boost up after the ecu was put in i couldnt anyway coz i didnt no how to work the avcr so i left everything alone now im not pointing the finger entirely at raw as they werent driving it when it blew up. now im no expert on cars but when you only gettin like 300km out of a tank of gas not givin it shit its using too much fuel also with the tune running safe and mint wouldnt u expect that it would running as smooth as it sounded like it was missing until i got past 2g. i would also like to no which haltech agent installed the ecu and were my standard ecu is that i never recieved back and my father had a chat with bob homewood and was told he would of talked me out of putting the e6x in.Now im not a mean bastard or anything i just want my car fixed and running mint if i was i would of had rawmotorworx fix my newly resprayed back bumper which they nicely took the paint off but i never said anything becoz it was only minor and there a bunch of good guys in there who gave great service.
cheers.
brian

[Ako]

at the end of the day, an engine wont last forever

I think that statement alone nails the issue on the head. Push an engine, and it will die eventually.

[caldinagtt]

yeah but to think that 99gtt has been running 20 psi on his caldina for a year with more ks than mine with the top mount still on with only exhuast and filter it just seems a bit strange a couple of months after the new ecu gets put in it blew up plus i only drive my car 2 or 3 times a week and i only ever put 98 in it its allways serviced i just dont want this happeneing again if it is due the the computer i need to find a new one or put the standard one back in so thats why im getting an independent haltech agent to have a look at it and asess it and then go from there thats all i can really do at the mo and im with out a car for a month or more and wpould ya look at that xmas is in a few weeks dont i just have the best luck.

[fivebob]

Before I respond to the points made, let me state that IMHO blame in this instance cannot be attributed to one factor, but rather a comedy of errors that have compounded themselves to the point that the engine has cried "enough"!

IMHO I don't believe that there should be any attempt to blame anyone for this failure, as I stated before some on this forum had predicted that it would happen.

If so then would you care to explain why the car is so rich off boost?

Also isn't the 95% duty cycle @ 7000rpm due to the overly rich 10.5:1 mixture, and would be fixed by leaning the engine out above 6500rpm? FWIW the stock injectors will not exceed 90% duty cycle until about 7800rpm if tuned for 12:1.
Quote:

well, the sheet doesn't show cruising mixtures, just the load transition, from 4 psi onwards, off boost?? where??

Sorry misinterpretation on my part, should've stated low boost, not off boost, i.e. the left of the graph. I've seen a lot of 3S-GTE dyno plots (and even more AFR logs) and this is the only one I've ever seen that started off rich. Most will start at 14:1 and tend down to 12:1 at around 3500rpm.

i would also like to point out that the wideband used was shuved up the bum for the dyno, ours was less than 20cm away from the turbo.

So it was running even richer than it shows on the dyno then, and if you take the supposed exhaust leak into account then it would be richer still.

rich up top?? what happens when the boost gets turned up, as you can just about guarentee it will.

Huh??? That's no reason to run a rich mixture at 14psi, that's what the higher boost regions of the map are for. To say that it's maxing out at 14psi, when it's obvious that it's far too rich, and then using that as a reason not to up the boost make no sense to me.

this car had a few problems, and we made sure it will be safe.

Not saying you didn't, just that the tune, as evidenced by the mixture graph shown, is not what I would consider as a job well done, but I'm a lot fussier, and possibly better educated on Engine Management Systems, than most.

One thing though, if this car had so many problems, then why did you even do any work on it before they were fixed?

I would have thought it would be prudent not to try and tune a car that isn't in the best possible mechanical condition.

The Haltech E6-X only supports 36-1 Motronic mode, how does this work with the Toyota's 36-2 trigger wheel?

no it doesn't. the e6 is capable of running anything from rx7 to evo, and includes the caldina.
Standard Trigger Full Cycle, with home on the CAM
24 +1 Multi-Tooth trigger (Honda, Toyota)
Nissan Trigger
Motronic with home signal on the CAM
Subaru
Subaru MY01
the ecu can also compensate for variations, by changing the trigger angle and tooth offset.

Oops, seems I didn't make my point clear enough

I'm not saying it doesn't have multiple modes, just the the Motronic modes that it supports is 36-1 or 60-2, but it doesn't support the Caldina's 36-2 crank trigger.

The motronic wheels supported by the ECU to date are those driven by the crank only and are limited to wheels with 60 teeth with 2 missing and 36 teeth with 1 missing.

So again I fell compelled to ask, what effect does running a 36-1 trigger setup have when the actual trigger is 36-2.

multipoint injection fires all injectors at once, how can this cause a cylinder to run lean??

Because injection timing affects mixture strength. Therfore if one cylinder is optimally timed it will be running richer, the cylinder that has the worst timing will be running leaner, the O2 sensor only reads the average mixture strength. Granted this is only around 0.02Lambda difference between cylinders, and as I stated before it’s not enough to make a difference at the AFR’s that this engine left your shop.

we are an autherised haltech agent, and wouldnt use them if they couldnt do the job.

I'm not questioning your knowledge of the Haltech, but rather it's suitability to run the Caldina sensors, most importantly the crank sensors, and to a lesser extent it's ability to run the Caldina COP ignition which requires a 0-5v square wave signal.

we have installed and tuned over 20 systems in the last year, this includes 2 10 sec evos. and an 11 sec libero.

That's all well and good, and I congratulate you on your successes. However it begs the question as to how many 10, 11 or even 12 sec Caldinas you have tuned, or maybe even just how many high performance 3S-GTEs?

Not to cast aspersions on your tuning abilities, but surely you would agree that good results out of one engine doesn't mean to say that the knowledge will transfer to all engines. For example did you know that the Caldina version of the 3S-GTE is prone to detonation between 5500 & 5800rpm, the earlier versions of this motor are have the same issue but at 5900-6200rpm, I won’t get into the technicalities of why, but suffice it to say that it’s something you need to tune for.

there is no need for all the negativity on these forums, they are here to help people, not act as a place for everyone to hate each other.

What can I say except welcome to Toyspeed, and if think it's bad here then you need to have a look around at a few other automotive forums. Generally speaking people do get help when they ask for it on these forums. However some users have a history of irritating others by not listening to good advice offered and, shall we say, somewhat less than agreeable posting style, Brian is one such user so the acerbic posts you see before you are the inevitable result.

at the end of the day, an engine wont last forever

Of course not, but it should last a bit better when carefully tuned. That said however, the Caldina 3S-GTE is not the most robust of engines when pushed and successful tuning of it requires a knowledge of it’s shortcomings.

I would also note that the positive crankcase ventilation observed in this case is not the usual mode of failure and may just be caused by continuing to run a motor that had already cried enough. Usually the engine will break a ring land or two and spew oil out the BOV, or at the very least start sounding like a Subaru, which for an inline four is not a pleasant thing. A knowledgeable operator would pick up on this and do a compression or leak-down test to confirm their suspicions. If an engine is run for any length of time in this state disaster is sure to follow.

[fivebob]

yeah but to think that 99gtt has been running 20 psi on his caldina for a year with more ks than mine with the top mount still on with only exhuast and filter

I ran mine at 18psi for over a year, and as that's how the boost controller was set when it came from Japan, I suspect it ran there for a lot longer. However all it took was one hot day and a long trip to break a ring land. Luckily I knew what to look for when it wasn't running properly and I caught it before anything major went wrong. So while you can get away with running them there, it's not necessarily safe. Also note that FarmerDave's engine failed at stock boost levels, albeit running on 96, with one tank of 91.

it just seems a bit strange a couple of months after the new ecu gets put in it blew up plus i only drive my car 2 or 3 times a week and i only ever put 98 in it its allways serviced

As I've stated before I don't think any one thing can be blamed for the failure, it's a combination of a lot of bad decisions, both on your part and the part of those that did the work. By themselves they would not have caused the failure, but add them all together and you're walking the high tightrope with no safety net.

i just dont want this happeneing again if it is due the the computer i need to find a new one or put the standard one back in so thats why im getting an independent haltech agent to have a look at it and asess it and then go from there thats all i can really do at the mo

If it was up to me I wouldn't have used the E6-X in the first place, the E-11 seems a more suitable unit for your engine if you want to use a Haltech. My preferences for Engine Management Systems is well known on this forum so you can take it as read that I wouldn't use the E-11 either, but not everyone can afford a Motec. Though at an estimated price of $3500 for a plug & play setup it seems cheap compared to a blown motor, not that I'm saying that the E6-X caused the failure.

When all said and done, IMHO, you shouldn't have tried to fit and tune an ECU until your engine was in a fit state with no known problems, as doing so is just asking for trouble. Blaming the ECU, and it's tune, for all your woes isn't justifiable and I think it's best if you chalk it up to experience and move on to better things.

[vvega]

there is no need for all the negativity on these forums, they are here to help people, not act as a place for everyone to hate each other.

this is a hypocricical statement
you came in here put down his car and him in your first post
and then when you get questioned you get all defensive

sorry mate but in here your word is to be questioned
and to be honest had you of answered fivebobs questions with some sort of understanding and aurthority it would have cleaned up nicey

and i will ask again....
what was the revlimiter set to ........

throwing a rod is normally a indication of high RPM failure or rod bolt failure..posible lack of lubracation

at his level of power that would not even enter into the equation
i guess i can ask a bout oil condition and presure
and revlimit

i fail to see how your rich tune can be responisble for the destrution of his motor aside from maye a pile of timming and a hole lot of detanation........


hes come on here asking for advice and wethier you like it or not hes gunna get some
but before hes gets the right advice he will have to give over some more information




v

[suberimakuri]

36-2.... that implies 36 teeth with 2 missing, thus 34 teeth total.

toyotas since redtop 4age, gen2 3sge, etc...have run at 24+1 setup, designed by nippondenso, similar to mazda units. that's 25 teeth in total.

i'd be surprised if the caldina is running anything different.

[Inane]

36-2.... that implies 36 teeth with 2 missing, thus 34 teeth total.

toyotas since redtop 4age, gen2 3sge, etc...have run at 24+1 setup, designed by nippondenso, similar to mazda units. that's 25 teeth in total.

i'd be surprised if the caldina is running anything different.

not sure if this is relevant.. but the caldina is actually running a Yamaha engine.

[suberimakuri]

just a 3sgte isn't it?

[XERO]

Yes, The 3SGE from the GT is a yamaha engine.... Beams head

[fivebob]

36-2.... that implies 36 teeth with 2 missing, thus 34 teeth total.

toyotas since redtop 4age, gen2 3sge, etc...have run at 24+1 setup, designed by nippondenso, similar to mazda units. that's 25 teeth in total.

i'd be surprised if the caldina is running anything different.

Then be suprised , because it's running 36-2, as does the Altezza and many other VVT-i Toyotas.

Motronic 36-2....These are sometimes found on Toyota engines.

Toyota
Suits: 4ZZ FE, 3ZZ FE and other VVTi engines, ie. VVTi Yaris
(Echo), Corolla, etc.
Ref : 36-2, MAG : 36 evenly spaced teeth with two missing
(per rev)

I'll let you count up the pulses

[RomanV]

Yes, The 3SGE from the GT is a yamaha engine.... Beams head

Its still a toyota engine...

Yamaha just lent a helping hand.

3SGTE's arent beams motors anyway.

[fivebob]

toyotas since redtop 4age, gen2 3sge, etc...have run at 24+1 setup, designed by nippondenso, similar to mazda units. that's 25 teeth in total.

Not sure about the 4A-GE, but the earlier 3S engine run 24 evenly spaced teeth on a Cam based trigger ( so only 12 teeth per revolution) and a seperate sensor and trigger wheel with one tooth for #1 TDC position. Not what is usually meant by 24+1, which implies 24 teeth + 1 extra using a crankshaft mounted trigger.

[suberimakuri]

sweet as.. gen4 different.. ok.
2nd trigger...

12+1 i guess.