Compressor surging ?

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Postby Wolf_Tm250 » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:51 am

fivebob wrote:
BTW have you got a dyno plot, or at least some more information about where peak torque occurs, and possibly a boost curve from you logs.



This is the only dyno I have, the one at 1.95 bar...


Image


I switched off the EBC, but with 1.16 bar of boost I don't have that problem anymore....


++++


The result of my first trackday.... only 5 rounds made...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Image

It seems that I have to modify something in the manifold to make it stronger.... the welding of the wg runner is broken...


Thank you.
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Postby vvega » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:39 am

you need to put a flexy on the wastegate pip to stop it doing that
different expansion rates so eveytime you hit you desired boost the pipe heats and tried to rip itself of :D
the flexy will allow for that expansion

hop that helps :D

v
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Postby fivebob » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:25 pm

Wolf_Tm250 wrote:This is the only dyno I have, the one at 1.95 bar...

8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
200ft/lbs @ 3100rpm at the wheels of a 4wd and still making 420hpATW, yes it probably is surge.

The result of my first trackday.... only 5 rounds made...

vvega is right you will need a flexi pipe and probably some bracing as well. I assume the screamer pipe is attached to the car at one end if so the flexipipe should go after the wastegate.
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Postby Wolf_Tm250 » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:42 pm

fivebob wrote:
Wolf_Tm250 wrote:This is the only dyno I have, the one at 1.95 bar...

8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
200ft/lbs @ 3100rpm at the wheels of a 4wd and still making 420hpATW, yes it probably is surge.



Ok....

what do you suggest ?

1) Controlling the boost rpm-based ?

2) Or... just an idea... given that I reached in track EGT 950 deg. C., and given that I know for sure it was available a bigger a/r turbine for that turbo, could I change to the bigger one a/r turbine, to decrease the backpressure ( less EGTs ? ), and to make the turbo build boost later (less surging ) ?

3) Any other method to avoid surging ?
Bigger air filter ? Now I'm using an A'pex Power Intake... maybe not so big at those values...


The result of my first trackday.... only 5 rounds made...

vvega is right you will need a flexi pipe and probably some bracing as well. I assume the screamer pipe is attached to the car at one end if so the flexipipe should go after the wastegate.


Yes, vvega is right about thermal expansion,
but my screamer pipe was not braced, so the wg/screamer system ( around 4 kgs ) was braced only to the wg feed pipe, and maybe the high EGTs and the hits of the track session made the weld to go...

So, in conclusion...

a) correct the surging problem

b) weld the wg feed pipe, flexi and brace on the wg exhaust, SILENCING the wg exhaust

c) lower the EGTs

Thank you.
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Postby fivebob » Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:11 pm

Wolf_Tm250 wrote:
Ok....

what do you suggest ?

1) Controlling the boost rpm-based ?

Yes that will work, Motec would provide it, but tuning the boost curve on the Motec is a major job to get it just right.
2) Or... just an idea... given that I reached in track EGT 950 deg. C., and given that I know for sure it was available a bigger a/r turbine for that turbo, could I change to the bigger one a/r turbine, to decrease the backpressure ( less EGTs ? ), and to make the turbo build boost later (less surging ) ?

That should work by increasing the flow, and it should give you better top end, at the expense of bottom end power, which is probably not a bad thing considering thep power you have down low. One thing though, it may push the surge further up the rev range if the boost is raised any higher, I think 2.0Bar is probably more than enough anyway.
3) Any other method to avoid surging ?
Bigger air filter ? Now I'm using an A'pex Power Intake... maybe not so big at those values...

No, increasing airflow to the turbo will just make the problem worse, you need to improve flow from the turbo onwards. Changing the A/R of the exhaust turbine is probably the best option you have. Your cams should provide more than enough flow for this HP level, but you may be able to eliminate surge by changing the overlap, though that a "try it and see" option, and may not do anything, or could even make it worse.


So, in conclusion...

a) correct the surging problem

Yes
b) weld the wg feed pipe, flexi and brace on the wg exhaust, SILENCING the wg exhaust

no need to silence the WG exhaust if you don't have/want to, but it does need a brace and a flexi pipe to control expansion.
c) lower the EGTs

Yes 950 is far too high, should be around 850 or lower, especially if you're using a wideband O2 sensor, as that will not like those temperatures.
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Postby drftnmaz » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:32 pm

sounds to me like your wastegate is too big so when it opens its lets too much out cause its going into the atmoser and has no backpressure.
(recycling it might help... i remember reading somewher that 24" is the ideal length... (who knows how they came up with that) :roll:

do you have two airlines on your wastegate??? do you have them both hooked up with the controller hooked up the right way so it creates differental pressure?
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Postby Wolf_Tm250 » Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:00 pm

Thank you fivebob !


drftnmaz wrote:sounds to me like your wastegate is too big so when it opens its lets too much out cause its going into the atmoser and has no backpressure.
(recycling it might help... i remember reading somewher that 24" is the ideal length... (who knows how they came up with that) :roll:



I'll tell you, given that I decided, for my driving license's safety reason, to turn it into the exhaust...


do you have two airlines on your wastegate??? do you have them both hooked up with the controller hooked up the right way so it creates differental pressure?


Yes...

Thank you.
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