LAW on Speeding Tickets and obtaining Exact Speed Reading

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Postby slighty_sykotic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:45 pm

fivebob wrote:
slighty_sykotic wrote:Btw, if you fight it, and lose in court, it will turn into a crimal offence, not just a instant ticket.


Complete and utter BS, the offence doesn't suddenly mutate into a criminal one just because you take it to court. :roll:

Not that I'd take a speeding one to court anyway unless you've got money and time to waste because the chances of winning are very slim


Ok, im sorry, speeding tickets don't then. I was meaning things like unsafe lane changes etc, if you fight one of those tickets and lose, it will be on your record as an offence. I got that part wrong.
Last edited by slighty_sykotic on Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby slighty_sykotic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:47 pm

ollieboy wrote:
slighty_sykotic wrote:No they don't. Most do to stop all agurements, because if you see the speed yourself, you havn't really got much to complain about, but honestly, they are within their rights to say no, esp if they didnt accutly lock you, just saw your speed on the radar, but didnt hit lock.


Now I know your mum is not a traffic cop. It automatically locks on when it detects someone breaking the speed limit.



BULLSHIT!!!

I was in a frekin cop car on friday, I have used a radar to lock someone... It does NOT auto lock, explain how that hell it knows what the speed limitt is?
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Postby slighty_sykotic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:57 pm

pyro_sniper2002 wrote:You can ask to see the log book for the radar/laser too. IIRC it needs to be calibrated dailey. But someone may be more sure on that so take it with a grain of salt. Anyway it was sujested to me by an x cop that if it wasnt done that day to sign the book your self.


Yup, you can do that. Has to be done every day, in fact, it might even be every shift. Not sure on which it is. Will ask mum when i next see her.
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Postby slighty_sykotic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:05 pm

slighty_sykotic wrote:
fivebob wrote:
slighty_sykotic wrote:Btw, if you fight it, and lose in court, it will turn into a crimal offence, not just a instant ticket.


Complete and utter BS, the offence doesn't suddenly mutate into a criminal one just because you take it to court. :roll:

Not that I'd take a speeding one to court anyway unless you've got money and time to waste because the chances of winning are very slim


Ok, im sorry, speeding tickets don't then. I was meaning things like unsafe lane changes etc, if you fight one of those tickets and lose, it will be on your record as an offence. I got that part wrong.


Accutly, no, I think i am still correct. Instant tickets are not on your main "police record" as such, they are barly recorded, but EACH time you go to court, it is recorded, in detail, so I was correct, if you fight it, and lose, the court experience will be put on your "proper" record.
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Postby fivebob » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:43 pm

slighty_sykotic wrote:
fivebob wrote:
slighty_sykotic wrote:Btw, if you fight it, and lose in court, it will turn into a crimal offence, not just a instant ticket.


Complete and utter BS, the offence doesn't suddenly mutate into a criminal one just because you take it to court. :roll:

Not that I'd take a speeding one to court anyway unless you've got money and time to waste because the chances of winning are very slim


Ok, im sorry, speeding tickets don't then. I was meaning things like unsafe lane changes etc, if you fight one of those tickets and lose, it will be on your record as an offence. I got that part wrong.

No you got the whole lot wrong, no traffic offence for which an instant fine is given ever becomes a criminal offence. If it was a crimianl offence to start with, like Dangerous driving, drunk driving etc then you wouldn't be given an instant fine for it.

I suggest you stop trying to justify something about which you have no idea :roll:
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Postby fivebob » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:46 pm

slighty_sykotic wrote:Ok, im sorry, speeding tickets don't then. I was meaning things like unsafe lane changes etc, if you fight one of those tickets and lose, it will be on your record as an offence. I got that part wrong

...Accutly, no, I think i am still correct. Instant tickets are not on your main "police record" as such, they are barly recorded, but EACH time you go to court, it is recorded, in detail, so I was correct, if you fight it, and lose, the court experience will be put on your "proper" record.


Oh FFS learn the difference between a criminal offence, which is what your orignal post said, and one that is recorded againist your record.

Not that it matters anyway, because instant fines are recorded against your driving record as well.
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Postby slighty_sykotic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:46 pm

um, ok?

Your an angry man my friend.

I will endevour to get proof of what I have said, all of it.

And i am very sorry for using the word crimal offence... I should have said maybe, umm, "becomes something that will accutly matter?"
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Postby slighty_sykotic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:54 pm

Have now edited my post, is that better sir?

Everything else I have said is true, if you or anyone believes otherwise, can we have proof?


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Postby slighty_sykotic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:55 pm

slighty_sykotic wrote:
Btw, if you fight it, and lose in court, it will turn into a SOMETHING THAT MATTERS, not just a instant ticket.

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Postby ollieboy » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:00 am

slighty_sykotic wrote:
ollieboy wrote:
slighty_sykotic wrote:No they don't. Most do to stop all agurements, because if you see the speed yourself, you havn't really got much to complain about, but honestly, they are within their rights to say no, esp if they didnt accutly lock you, just saw your speed on the radar, but didnt hit lock.


Now I know your mum is not a traffic cop. It automatically locks on when it detects someone breaking the speed limit.



BULLSHIT!!!

I was in a frekin cop car on friday, I have used a radar to lock someone... It does NOT auto lock, explain how that hell it knows what the speed limitt is?


Theres a little dial with up and down arrows that you push to set the speed. I will get a picture of one tomorrow if I remember to.
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Postby slighty_sykotic » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:07 am

Ok, possibly we are talking about different radars?

The ones in the PN area use a stalker radar, I think its ethier a stalker dual, or a stalker DSG. Not sure.

http://www.stalkerradar.com/

I can't get to the user manuals though, they are passworded for police only, but can you find the one that you have seen on there? The DUAL looks like a later model of the ones in PN traffic cars.


http://www.stalkerradar.com/law_dual.shtml

Think thats a later model of the one they use, you can see on the remote (theres a bigger pic on the site under docs) the top button is a lock button, you hit the XMIT button after selecting the mode you want (same direction/opp direction as cop car, stationary etc), then once you have a reading in orange box, you hit lock, and the locked speed goes into the red space, and the orange one keeps couting, so if you lock someone at 60, and then speed up to 65 after you lock them, you can release the lock button, and hit it again to lock the higher speed. And the green one is the cop car.

EDIT: It can't be the DSG, cause that one auto senses the direction. It must be the dual. (or simular)

--Sykotic
Last edited by slighty_sykotic on Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fivebob » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:07 am

slighty_sykotic wrote:Have now edited my post, is that better sir?


No it's not :roll: , because it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever if you fight the ticket in court (and lose) or just pay it, the offence remains the same, the computer records the offence regardless of whether you fight it (and lose) or not.
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Postby slighty_sykotic » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:12 am

It changes your record, a court apperence is a $&#$% load bigger than an instant ticket.

Ok, how would you like me to be proven wrong? How can we prove who is right, cause we can both agrue forever. Nethier of us are police, but going from what I no, what I have be told, what my mates have been told, what my mother was told in her job, and in fact, common sense, all say, is that getting a court apperence on your record is not good. Its a shit load worse than a instant ticket. Like you say, its on your driving record, not your masters, until you go to court, then its on your masters aswell.

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Postby ollieboy » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:16 am

slighty_sykotic wrote:Ok, possibly we are talking about different radars?

The ones in the PN area use a stalker radar, I think its ethier a stalker dual, or a stalker DSG. Not sure.

http://www.stalkerradar.com/

I can't get to the user manuals though, they are passworded for police only, but can you find the one that you have seen on there? The DUAL looks like a later model of the ones in PN traffic cars.


http://www.stalkerradar.com/law_dual.shtml

Think thats a later model of the one they use, you can see on the remote (theres a bigger pic on the site under docs) the top button is a lock button, you hit the XMIT button after selecting the mode you want (same direction/opp direction as cop car, stationary etc), then once you have a reading in orange box, you hit lock, and the locked speed goes into the red space, and the orange one keeps couting, so if you lock someone at 60, and then speed up to 65 after you lock them, you can release the lock button, and hit it again to lock the higher speed. And the green one is the cop car.

EDIT: It can't be the DSG, cause that one auto senses the direction. It must be the dual. (or simular)

--Sykotic


We are talking about different ones sorry. I can't find it on that website. I guess country cops get the old stuff because the ones the police here use are pretty old.
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Postby slighty_sykotic » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:21 am

Ok, sorry for calling bullshit, and my mum is deff a traffic cop...

And yeah, thats the only type I have ever seen in a cop car.

Where in the country are you?

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Last edited by slighty_sykotic on Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ollieboy » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:24 am

slighty_sykotic wrote:Ok, sorry for calling bullshit, and my mum is deff a traffic cop...

And yeah, thats the only type I have ever seen in a cop car.

Yeah in the country are you?

--Sykotic


Yeah I'm sorry too.

We're just outside of christchurch.
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Postby Sick Puppy » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:57 am

ollieboy wrote:
slighty_sykotic wrote:Ok, sorry for calling bullshit, and my mum is deff a traffic cop...

And yeah, thats the only type I have ever seen in a cop car.

Yeah in the country are you?

--Sykotic


Yeah I'm sorry too.

We're just outside of christchurch.

Now that we've all kissed and made up, we've established that:
a) cops are unfair (qu'elle surprise :? )
b) cops use different cameras depending on where they are based blah blah, and we can't see the user manuals (cops only), but since they are different they probably use different calibration methods and registration processes (my assumption, flame me if you like)
c) Everybody seems to know or be related to a cop, but no-one can establish just how to fight a speeding ticket.
d) Those silly enough to fight them will probably lose; (my words) 'trained police officer' who 'knows about this sort of thing' vs. 'young boy racer in nice car'.

Erm, not that I'm repeating myself, but how about a forum thead summarising what can and cannot be done? :!:
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Postby ollieboy » Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:05 am

I spoke to mum she says when you write a letter explain how the cop was coming towards you and said he was pacing you and wouldn't show you the speed you were doing when you asked.
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Postby B1NZ » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:55 pm

Found this on a NZ website a while back, see if this helps you:


The key point to remember is that an infringement notice is only an allegation that an offence may have occurred.
The heading, or statement, regarding the Alleged Infringement Offence would clearly suggest that you are not guilty until either you admit guilt ie pay fine, or the Police prove guilt re the Alleged Offence in court.

While the Police advise that you only have the option of paying the fine or
requesting a court hearing to prove innocence, under common Law the requirement is generally for the prosecuting party (ie the informant) to request a court hearing to prove guilt. The adage innocent until proven guilty is fundamental to Law.
If you are innocent, why should you need to request a court hearing.

It is ultimately up to the Police to request a court hearing, or drop the alleged offence.

The Police seem to have a problem here,
a) They have no tangible evidence.
b) The officer who issued the ticket must now appear in court, so isn't out on the road generating more revenue.
c) If they loose, they could then be laible for costs.

This is why they will try to push the argument that you are guilty and must request a court hearing, if you wish to try to prove your innocence.

Some suggestions

-Don't try to argue case with Ticketing Police Officer unnecessarily, as they may pay more attention to detail

-Even if you don't write to challenge the infringement notice, after 28 days you will receive a reminder notice. After a further 28 days, another reminder notice.
ie You have three months to decide.

-Demerit points can't be deducted until you pay the fine, ie thereby admit guilt. If the case is tied up in court, then no action can be taken until resolved or dealt with by the court.

-Check reminder notices etc for discrepancies with original infringement notice.

-Apart from speed cameras, red light cameras etc, with your typical infringement notice there is seldom any proof retained (electronically or otherwise) that an offence may have occurred.
If no evidence is supplied by the Infringement Bureau upon request, then either the Infringement Bureau is in breach of the Law (by not disclosing evidence), or none exists.

-Don't feel threatened by any threat or statement made by the Infringement Bureau, eg re legal advise, court hearings, fine payment etc.
Just use common sense, and hold firm to the knowledge that you also have legal rights.

-Put the onus on Police to prove guilt, or drop the charge


#1st Letter to infringement bureau
-Deny guilt, request more detail etc

#2nd Letter to infringement bureau
-Request a copy of the disclosure statement

(The infringement notice has two copies. The top copy is given to the defendant.
The bottom is a carbon copy which is handed to the Police staff sergeant or similar and forwarded onto Wellington. The disclosure statement is from the back of this copy, and is headed wish the statement "Notes made at time by Officer".
Check the disclosure statement copy against the original ticket for size, markings or black square where the back of the ticket number should be, changes in hand writing etc. Often the disclosure isn't completed at the time the ticket is issued, and may have been doctored or falsified)

-Request a copy of the relevant leglislationtion eg regulation xx Traffic Regulation 19xx, as recorded on the reminder notice.

-Request proof of the alleged offence, or demand the ticket is waived

#3rd Letter to infringement bureau
-Challenge every aspect of the case as appropriate

-Make the statement, "I deny liability with regard to the alleged offence"

-Suggest that unless the Police can prove the alleged offence they should drop the charge.

-You can even suggest that you understand that it is the right of the informant (ie the Police) to either request a court hearing to prove guilt, or to waive the charge.


#Possible outcomes
a) The Infringement Bureau will drop the case... good one!!!
they have a financial target to achieve.

b) The Infringement Bureau will send the ticket to the court collections department. A $30 charge will be added.

c) The Infringement Bureau will send you a Court Summons, and a letter which reads "Thank you for your request for a court hearing..."

d) The Infringement Bureau will request a court hearing. (Last resort for Police)

#The Court System
The court system (like any other government department) is over worked, understaffed, under funded and has a high staff turnover.
If every one challenged their ticket through the court, the system would fail.

-Under outcome b) the Infringement Bureau have breached your rights by not providing you the option to defend yourself against the alleged offence. They cannot extort your money unless the court finds you guilty
ie innocent until proven guilty...

-Under outcome c) the Infringement Bureau have breached the Law by falsifying a court document ie you did not request a court hearing as stated on the summons.

Complete Form 57 (Statutory Declaration to Correct Irregularities in Proceedings for Infringement Offence), available from the counter at your local district court.
Highlight any issues you have, eg falsified court documentation, errors in proceedings, failure to advise of court hearings etc (you can also refer to and file associated documents or letter etc as the form is only designed for one line statements and space is limited).

The court must now suspend the case until they have time to review the points you have raised. They may send it back to the Police.

While the case is suspended, the Collections department can't purse the fine ie it's suspended (still no demerit points etc).

Even with the case suspended, you may still receive the occasional notice from the Collections dept.
Simply ring the 0800 number to ensure the case is still suspended.
Any action to attempt to collect a suspended fine is unlawful. You could sue them for defamation etc.
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Postby wde_bdy » Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:39 pm

Just one point to remember with demerit points, while you are disputing a fine they should not be credited to your driving record. However once guilt is proven or you admit guilt then they are back dated to the date of the offence. So delaying payment is not a way to avoid losing your licence as at that pont in time you will still be over your demerits and they will come get your licence once it is resolved.
This was changed after they became aware of this loophole. it was closed quite quickly.

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