Touchy Subject but, The AE86 Status

[samlloyd]

Just to talk about this, why do you feel a Japanesse car cant be a classic?? Im curisos to know..... Is it becasue they are far more advanced than that of Britsh and euro cars.......

nope, not at all

i just feel they have no character.... hard to explain.... just no passion in them.....
as i said subjective.. doesnt have to be logical.

now that escort above is very nice!
maybe a classic if its the right model.....
a bda or twincam is a classic.... but a 1100 with bubble archs isnt..... as cool as it is....

1100 with bubble archs, WTF!!!!
Genuine RS1600
What the 4age motor was based on!

[RS13]

question for mr RS13

have you driven an AE86?

Yup, and a 4age'd AE85, and a bog standard AE85, even a 3AU AE85 with a dirty big cam! Hahha.

I see what you're getting at.

Can I just say, I've pretty much driven every model Toyota ever sold after 1980.. as well as Nissan, and a few Mazdas, rotaries, Hondas, road and the odd racecar, so I feel I'm fairly well placed to make comments like those above.. I've also owned every type of layout, shy of MR2s.

Is that ok with you?

[AE85coupe]

question for mr RS13

have you driven an AE86?

Yup, and a 4age'd AE85, and a bog standard AE85, even a 3AU AE85 with a dirty big cam! Hahha.

I see what you're getting at.

Can I just say, I've pretty much driven every model Toyota ever sold after 1980.. as well as Nissan, and a few Mazdas, rotaries, Hondas, road and the odd racecar, so I feel I'm fairly well placed to make comments like those above.. I've also owned every type of layout, shy of MR2s.

Is that ok with you?

yep thats awesome, thanks man, now i can actually appreciate your opinion

[TRD Man]

Perhaps the debate about the classicness of the AE86 might find some direction if we all had a grasp of what classic actually means.

Leon has suggested, and others have agreed, that it's 100% subjective. I suspect this is because he has witnessed motorsport, particularly rallying, wrestle with this topic for some time.

Rallying has tended to place an age limit, or date, on classic eligibility, as some have done in this debate. That is, of course, silly. What they are really promoting is, not classic but, historic rallying.
Similarly, a car would not become a classic in the future by virtue simply of it's age, unless that in itself was remarkable.
Class has no age limit. It is entirely possible for a new car to be a classic.

Those in charge of classic racing have historically adopted Warwick's attitude. Heritage is what it's all about for them and Japanese cars simply don't have it. That is equally silly. Datsun 240Z, S1 RX7, TE27 not classics?

We need look no further than the dictionary to define classic. My Concise Oxford states "of acknowledged excellence & importance". My Collins lists "of historic significance" & "any excellent or remarkable thing".

Surely the AE86 would qualify under any of those definitions. It's certainly been an excellent 'general use' motorsport car and, in it's day, displayed remarkable performance.
It is the car that brought us what is probably the most commonly used engine in motorsport today. That is certainly historically significant.
And it led the way for Toyota's production of the many multi-valve engines they've produced since. I guess for them that's pretty important.

Whether other models would qualify as classics under these definitions may be fuel for another debate. There's no upper limit on the number of cars that qualify. A car isn't determined classic or not because another car might be considered more worthy.

Neither are popularity, performance or price factors in a car's classicness unless any one of those parameters is remarkable in itself.

Sadly, as much as I might like them, I cannot imagine an argument to describe a KP Starlet as excellent, remarkable or historically significant.

[RS13]

Hmm, fair enough, although I still believe that the KP60 shares identical attributes, albeit in lesser form/function.

It is the car that brought us what is probably the most commonly used engine in motorsport today. That is certainly historically significant.
And it led the way for Toyota's production of the many multi-valve engines they've produced since. I guess for them that's pretty important.

But was the AE86 actually the first production car with the 4AGE? I'm sure either the Carina or the Corona (or maybe both?) were 4AGE'd before the AE86 was.. and, the Carina was IRS as well.. you could say it was a little odd that the AE86 was the more popular one, seeing as the Carina was perhaps technologically superior, given that IRS appears to be the preferred rwd setup with todays cars?

Was the 4AGE an evolution of the lotus twincam, or the 2T-GEU, or a little bit of both?

I also find it interesting that the other main Japanese manufacturers marketed an EFi 1600cc twincam (Honda ZC, Mazda B6, even mitsi's 4G61) around the same time (early-mid 80's).. but none are as widely used in motorsport or road. Is that due to the motors.. or the cars? I've often wondered..

[Mr Revhead]

4age had nothing in common with the lotus twincam cept for having 2 cams
the BDA is the one thats reguarded as the 4AGEs influence.

That is equally silly. Datsun 240Z, S1 RX7, TE27 not classics?

classic rally cars maybe...... but classic cars? i dunno.....
comes down to opinion doesnt it.

one of those unanswerable ones!

[Snoozin]

The AE86's reputation I think, as a well balanced, fun little car is most definitely deserved. I like to parallel the rep.the AE86 has gained with the reputation for handling and driver enjoyment that the Alfasud Ti gained- both were based on garden variety models, both provided a level of motoring enjoyment/enthusiasm that transcended their effectively low budget underpinnings.

So the fuss in that sense is quite understandable - the AE86 is a car that is capable and as such is popular for being so. People pay high prices for capable cars and capable cars you'd think are likely to have a higher demand due to their attributes! Personally I wouldn't pay the money some are asking but yeah....

Classic status it does not and will not ever attain in my opinion. Cult classic, yes.... but a true classic it will never be, the WORLDWIDE fanbase for the car is too limited, ie. cars like Ferrari's almost become classics by default due to their pedigree.... disregarding a handful of rare cars (ie. 2000GT etc) it's not overly likely you'll be able to make at an appearance at a Concours d'Elegance in most Toyota's let alone an AE86 and have classic car afficionado's drooling over it. Neither do I think, will there be a movement to restore a heap of AE86's (or AE85's hahahahahah) to original showroom condition, as seems to be the case with a lot of cars considered to be "true" classics.

Like the KP Starlet's (which in my biased mind provide the same thrills at a lower rate of knots ), the AE86 will always be destined to be a cult classic.

[HELBND]

Ive never owned, been in, driven or SEEN an ae86 in real life.

But I still have wet dreams over them.

If you have never driven, or owned a genuine ae86, the shut the god damned fluck up.

i seriously hope that post was a joke

[bluemaumau]

Ive never owned, been in, driven or SEEN an ae86 in real life.

But I still have wet dreams over them.

If you have never driven, or owned a genuine ae86, the shut the god damned fluck up.

i seriously hope that post was a joke

yea cause otherwise youll have to shut the fluck up

[HELBND]

actually, id have to "shut the god damned fluck up"

is it just me or does this thread attract a hell of a lot of ae86 fanboys

[sleeektoy]

Me and my brother came up against some opposition when we both entered the classic trial series run at a classic car meeting. This debate was to do with my 1972 TA22 celica , and my brothers AE86 eligibility for the event due to being japanese cars!!! A bit of to n fro and we both got there in the end but my brother still has issues sometimes entering. The trial organiser is a great advocate for us entering it, just the specific meeting organisers can be a bit iffy.

[TRD Man]

Datsun 240Z, S1 RX7, TE27 not classics?

classic rally cars maybe...... but classic cars? i dunno.....
comes down to opinion doesnt it.

one of those unanswerable ones!

Nothing to do with rallying. Those 3 cars have generally been indoctrinated by the classic car fraternity for quite a few years now.
In the end those old stick in the mud traditionalists just ran out of reasons to exclude them in the face of an overwhelming onslaught of reasons to include them.

And that's the point. It's not an unanswerable question or wholly subjective at all. You just need to apply the definitions.

Sure, to adjudge something excellent or, perhaps even, remarkable is mostly subjective.
But historical significance and importance are usually matters of fact/record.
If you can create a justifiable case, using those definitions, to classify something as a classic, then it is simply undeniable. Opinions don't matter!

[Snoozin]

Another thing to remember is SOME cars become considered classic because of simply how bad they were...

Edsel anyone?

(not insinuating AE86's are a bad car or anything.....)

[Alex B]

Delorian (sp) is the classic example.

[Dell'Orto]

P76 Leyland, classic for having more faults than good points

[Si]

citrion 2cv.....

the ultimate classic.

[ollieboy]

I know someone who bought a brand new beemer from the dealership only for it to break down just a kilometre down the road.

Thats instant classic status.

[scotts2hot]

Just to talk about this, why do you feel a Japanesse car cant be a classic?? Im curisos to know..... Is it becasue they are far more advanced than that of Britsh and euro cars.......

I mean, if to become a classic car, it means you need to have crap engineering, bad design and constant oil leaks, then yeah I guess a japanesse car could never become a classic....

This is a joke right? Euro cars are far better engineered than jap cars, always have been. Theres a few oddballs and british cars aren't very good, but german cars are miles ahead!

[Lloyd]

Again comes down to your definition of "better". I know from an engineering point of view I'd much rather have something japanese than german in my engine bay. At least it would keep going then

[ollieboy]

This is a joke right? Euro cars are far better engineered than jap cars, always have been. Theres a few oddballs and british cars aren't very good, but german cars are miles ahead!

Europeans used to be better engineered. Then they tried to add all these whizzbang electronics. Reliability fell hugely, the likes of Mercedes lost millions of dollars releasing unreliable cars like the maybach.

In a nutshell: Today, Japanese vehicles are far superior to anything europe can produce. I have many articles on the subject if you would like a read.