aimed at redmist etc: What does a b16 have over a 4age??

[sergei]

black top 20V, when on VVTiL is running 292 intake duration with 11.5mm lift

Black top does not have VVTiL, it uses standard cam for VVT, just advances timing slightly when VVT on, it also means that the vavles close earlier. The cam shaft are relatively low duration on 20v (~214), with relatively low lift (~8.2mm on black top)

[Grrrrrrr!]

The black top makes
165 ps (121.36 kw) / 7800 rpm
16.5 kg*m (161.81 N*m) / 5600 rpm

Now at 5252 rpm torque in Nm and power in HP have to be the same valau

err... couple of things...

The blacktop is claimed to make those numbers...

And at 5252 rpm the torque in Ft-lbs and horsepower are the same.

ft-lbs go with HP, Nm go with kW, and the 5252 constant is for ft-lbs and HP.. i cant remember what the crossover point for Nm and kW is.

Sergei: i asssume that duration number you are mentioning is at 0.050"?
Bill sherwoods site mentions 250 duration, i'm guessing thats seat to seat duration.

[HELBND]

i just have one question..

would you rather have your cambelt slip a couple of teeth in your 4age? or your b16?

i know which one id rather

[RedMist]

i just have one question..

would you rather have your cambelt slip a couple of teeth in your 4age? or your b16?

i know which one id rather

The reliability isn't in question here, performance is. However I dont think that the B16 drops any more valves than the 20 valve, which does it with an alarming frequency.

[RedMist]

has anyone got a dyno sheet of a bog std B16A vs a bog std Black top 20V? I'd almost put money on it that the 20V has more area under the curve becasue.........
The black top makes
165 ps (121.36 kw) / 7800 rpm
16.5 kg*m (161.81 N*m) / 5600 rpm

Now at 5252 rpm torque in Nm and power in HP have to be the same valaue, with peak torque being made at only 5600rpm, i'm picking that its making around 160hp pretty flattly from 5252rpm right thru to 7800rpm, which is a pretty good power range for a 'peaky' 1.6. Also considering that the black top 20V, when on VVTiL is running 292 intake duration with 11.5mm lift. I'd say that it quite possibly would make reasonable power thru to 9 or 9500?

has anyone ever pout a forged bottom end under a black top and turbo'd with with an DECENT aftermarket efi system? i'd be interested to see the results.

My silvertops dynoed at 123 and 125 bhp at the wheels. My Blacktop 132. This is through a RWD style transaxle so I would guess flywheel HP at about 135-145 which is consitant with others dyno results. This was using a Link LEM4, K and N pod and a free flowing exhaust system.

Sergei is most definately correct in regards to the VVT, although its mis quoted on many web sites as having vvt-i, the blacktop is definately only VVT.
And that cam is huge!!! Its certainly not standard, where can I get a set? No serious, I want a set!!!

[Lith]

has anyone got a dyno sheet of a bog std B16A vs a bog std Black top 20V? I'd almost put money on it that the 20V has more area under the curve becasue.........

Sounds like easy money if I were to hold you to that Even a B16A1 (equivalent to Silvertop) has more area under the curve than the blacktop 20v, if nothing else - for the simple fact even the blacktop 20v doesn't ever reach its 160hp claim.

I might possibly be able to scrounge a stock silvertop vs. stock B16A1 and/or stock blacktop vs. stock B16A2 plots if I talked real nicely to someone. Is it something that will be worthwhile to this thread?

[soopachargen]

has anyone ever pout a forged bottom end under a black top and turbo'd with with an DECENT aftermarket efi system? i'd be interested to see the results.

Barry (Bazda) has a forged 7a bottom end under his blacktop head with a t3/t4 running autronic??

[soopachargen]

Valve area. This is where the B16 really pisses on the 4age. The 4age 16 valve has an inlet valve area of 5845mm^2 whereas the B16 is 6842mm^2. Thats a huge 15% increase and the B16 valves arent masked!!! I suspect the 20 valve evens the score... however with 3 inlet valves you have swirl issues.
Exhaust valves are a similar story with a massive 17% more area than the 16 valve 4age

Would increasing the valve sizes on a 16v deliver a good performance increase?? what do you mean by the b16 valves not being masked??

[RedMist]

Would increasing the valve sizes on a 16v deliver a good performance increase?? what do you mean by the b16 valves not being masked??

An engine is the sum of ALL it's components. Optimally you want a charge to scream down a port at maximum velocity tumble and swirl as much as possible (while maintaing velocity) in order to keep the fuel as mixed as possible, at all RPM. A valve is part of that equation. There is little point in having a fast charge get lazy as it goes past the valve. So you want to run a small valve on an efficient low RPM engine and a large one on a screamer. Valve area is used as a general rule of thumb as to power potential.
On the down side, bigger valves need somewhere to sit and run further towards either each other or the port walls, effectively blocking part of the charge (masking). This may force the valve inclination to be increased. Which may in turn cause the valves to foul each other in cam overlap (very high performance cams). Or more likely charge to be directed striaght through to the exhuast. Squish bands, designed to keep the fuel tumbling and directed towards the spark are also forced to be smaller with a larger valve (or they too may cause masking), and with a higher valve inclination you typically have a larger combustion chamber so the dome on your piston gets bigger, which in turn affects flame propogation and detonation.... and so power drops. Complex, yep.. have I helped... nope.

Saying all that, TRD thought the 16 valve needed bigger valves for high performance use. I cant remember the size and I gave away my TRD 4AG Bible (Piece of shyte) but I think its 2mm on intake.

There are anomolies to manufacturers installation. Mainly depending on what is in the parts bin. My 6a10 for instance uses the valves from a 2ltr V6, same size as the 4age, but boy are they masked!

[soopachargen]

Dude your a legend... so much knowledge and so happy to share it.

[RedMist]

No legend, just a BS artist with too much time on my hands, and too little money to pay someone to work on my race cars.

I'm also reasonably observant, not quite so much as the likes of Ewan who even spots bucket oil retainer changes.... geek.

One other thing. Dont take my word as gospel, I'm simply stating my opinion and its based on a few neurons firing intermittantly to form a pretty picture in my head. If you are going to take this further, ie get some bigger valves you might want to get an impression of others pretty pictures.

[Grrrrrrr!]

Yes, increasing the valve sizes on the 16v heads is on of the things they do to get 230+ hp out of them in the old formula atlantic motors..

Stock intake valve:29.5mm
Form Atlan Intake:32mm
b16a Intake :33mm

Stock Exhaust:25.5mm
Form Atlan Exh:27.5mm
b16a exhaust :28mm

The stock 16v 4age cam is 232degrees 7.1mm lift , with low ramp speeds. The 240+hp cams have generally around 310-315deg duration and fast ramps and high lift 10+ mm(they are abusive to the springs). Cant find exhaust cam specs.

Stock B16 cams are 230 - 240 intake, 10.7mm lift, and exhaust is 227degrees, 9.4mm

So from that we can see. a b16a runs bigger valves, at higher/similar lift (on the high lobe) than a Formula Atlantic motor, just shorter duration to keep the power down in a useable revrange.. if it wasn't for the vtec system i wonder how driveable they would be down low?

interesting to see that the new formula atlantic motors are mazda/cosworth supplied.. 2.3ltr 300+ hp.

[10k 20v]

As much as i hate to admit it, the Honda engineers are the best (of the Japanese) when it comes to making high output production NA motors..
Honda S2000. goddamn
B16.. yep, bloody hondas
And as for the Honda bike division... those boys are awesome... how does a 32 Valve V4 (oval pistons) at 21,000 rpm sound? making around 250hp/ltr.. in 1982. (Pity they were competing against two-strokes making 300+hp/ltr..)

Would be very interesting to see what Honda could do in F1 if they dropped the "cylinders must be circular" rule... The one they introduced just after honda announced a return to f1...
as for mass production.. you'll probably find there were more B16s made than 20vs.. B16s were sold worldwide, the 20v only offically got released to Japan and South africa AFAIK.

And yes, the toyota quoted power figures for the 20v are a load of BS.. has anyone here seen over 100kw at the wheels of an internally standard 20v?

yip!!!

[Grrrrrrr!]

theres always bloody one.....

[soopachargen]

One other thing. Dont take my word as gospel, I'm simply stating my opinion and its based on a few neurons firing intermittantly to form a pretty picture in my head. If you are going to take this further, ie get some bigger valves you might want to get an impression of others pretty pictures.

Nah i'm not planning to do this anytime soon, just asking questions and looking for technical reasons to the comparrison between the 4age and the b16. I could be interested in your theories on building a good longblock to put my sc14 onto tho...

[10k 20v]

101.11kw vvt off
93.6kw vvt on

And that wasn't the best power run of the day either.
Blk top internally stock!

[MetalupYoAss]

i have driven all types of stock 4age, and a da6 integra with b16a2, and the vtec was the only car that would break traction in first.. at 7000rpm!!!

[10k 20v]

So, bigger valves, better combustion chamber, better ports, better cams, better pistons and more revs.

Just look at the way the cams are ramped!

[strx7]

black top 20V, when on VVTiL is running 292 intake duration with 11.5mm lift

Black top does not have VVTiL, it uses standard cam for VVT, just advances timing slightly when VVT on, it also means that the vavles close earlier. The cam shaft are relatively low duration on 20v (~214), with relatively low lift (~8.2mm on black top)

ahh yes its the 2ZZGE that has 292 11.5mm



Lets go a step further and compare a 2ZZGE against a B18C non type R engine. thats appples with apples

2ZZ-GE
190 ps (139.75 kw) / 7600 rpm
18.4 kg*m (180.44 N*m) / 6800 rpm

B18C
180 ps (132.39 kw) / 7600 rpm
17.8 kg*m (174.56 N*m) / 6200 rpm

B18C Type R
200 ps (147.10 kw) / 8000 rpm
19.0 kg*m (186.33 N*m) / 6200 rpm


Anyone got specs on the Toyota racing series 2ZZGE power output? as far as build spec goes, it'd be comparable to the Type R engine.

[10k 20v]

and the honda engine won't buzz it's self to pieces! unlike the stock 2zz's running round.

Im sorry but the 2zz isn't one of my favourite engines cos its just poos in comparison to the honda. This engine was toyota's chance to to show that they can build a bullet proof screamer with varible timing and lift but they break!! STOCK!!

Anyway, this a little off topic