aimed at redmist etc: What does a b16 have over a 4age??

[Grrrrrrr!]

More power can always be extracted from a bog standard mainstream production motor... the question is how much power can be extracted before you run out of (time, money, hair, reliability)

There a afew motor simulator packages on the net that you can purchase and plug details into so you can evaluate the possible gains from changing things like cams, valves, compression etc.

Maybe have a look at those?

[Mr Revhead]

ewan..... good points.

theres nothign wrong with honda engines, as some say best part of the car!
i just dont believe (or have seen any real evidience) that honda engines are better than toyota ones.
i also dont belive they are any worse in most cases.

but as ewan pointed out the r&d has been done on the 4age so thats a cheaper option for modding i feel

[10k 20v]

ewan..... good points.

theres nothign wrong with honda engines, as some say best part of the car!
i just dont believe (or have seen any real evidience) that honda engines are better than toyota ones.
i also dont belive they are any worse in most cases.

but as ewan pointed out the r&d has been done on the 4age so thats a cheaper option for modding i feel

yep, all 22 years of R&D!

[Ebola_One]

ok so, if the b16a is so much better, howcome hardly anyone uses them for racing?

People do use them for racing, I use mine for racing, I can point my finger at a few other people too. There's a Honda racing competition (I don't know what it's called) that was run last year (or was it this year?)
You look over seas & there's plenty of Honda racing, take State-side.
They also have a honda only race series, Honda's are very prominant in drag racing - both pro & 'amature'

As someone mentioned, it boils down to cost & compatability, I saw advertised the other day, a B18CR engine with 140km on the clock and it was priced at $2850.
No Gear box. Just engine. The gearbox that came with this engine will probably sell for somewhere in the region of $1600-$2000.
Admittidly, that's an 1800, but take a B16B block... BLOCK! no head, no intake or exhaust manifold and you're handing someone $1200.
The fact that the Bseries engines spin 'the wrong way' also hampers the compatability with RWD gearboxes, I'd love to see a B16(A/B) between the struts of a AW11, I'd also love to see a Turbo B18C(R) between the struts of a 3SGTE, I reckon it'd be an eye opener.
And I'd also hold the engines complicated nature against it too, without an aftermarket ECU, small problems can really kill your fun. Water temp sensor's on the blink, no VTEX, No Speed signal, no vtex, Cam angle sensor in the dizzy = no engine work.
The Dizzies alone cost around $600 for a full over haul. The fact that the Igniter, crank/cam angle sensor, and other associated bits are all inside the dizzy hurt. A dizzy on a hard driven engine can die anywhere from 120kms, it's usually the bearings that go too.

the advantage of the b16a is vtec. when modding for racing, eg cams etc that advantage is negated..... and it would appear the 4age is the prefferd option for that.

But the idea of VTEC is also to have a flat torque curve.
One of my dyno sheets looks like a drunk catapiller has crawled up & down the torque curve, but when you actually work out the torque difference bewteen highest & lowest it's only around 10NM (iirc).
Do 4AGE's have a flat torque curve? over a 6,200rpm range? (dyno started at 2krpm, finished at 8,200rpm)

And as for VTEC being 'negated' when you upgrade cams, not really.
Stage 3 cams from Skunk 2, Toda, etc are 'not recommended' for road use for various reasons (I'd take a stab at the lumpier + higher idle, degraded fuel economy, having to wind out to 3.5-4krpm+ for any real useable power), but it is possible. And, when you get up in the rev range, you've still got the ultra lumpy race cam profile. I see no dis-advantage?
I'd like to see you try & daily your 4age with a cam profile that has an effective power band above 6.5krpm, the VTEC engine will have a better fuel economy in low cam mode than the 4age at the same revs with a nasty race cam.

[pc]

f$%# what a long post.... But I agree entirely.

The reason I choose a 4AGE powered corolla is because they are cheap as chips and found everywhere. If the same could be said for B16 Hondas, I would definitely have a B16 powered car instead.
Also I knew nothing about mechanics when I started my race car and I needed something simple to learn on.
With VTEC you can have a race engine that can be driven to/from events.

[Ebola_One]

f$%# what a long post.... But I agree entirely.

The reason I choose a 4AGE powered corolla is because they are cheap as chips and found everywhere. If the same could be said for B16 Hondas, I would definitely have a B16 powered car instead.
Also I knew nothing about mechanics when I started my race car and I needed something simple to learn on.
With VTEC you can have a race engine that can be driven to/from events.

I hates you much.
In 40sec you summed up what took me around 10 mins to think about & type up. :upyours:

[RS13]

Just wanted to add,

i just have one question..

would you rather have your cambelt slip a couple of teeth in your 4age? or your b16?

i know which one id rather

I've snapped a B16A cambelt, however was off VTEC, so no damage done. New belt, was away again. They're only interference motors while on VTEC.

[Ebola_One]

Just wanted to add,

i just have one question..

would you rather have your cambelt slip a couple of teeth in your 4age? or your b16?

i know which one id rather

I've snapped a B16A cambelt, however was off VTEC, so no damage done. New belt, was away again. They're only interference motors while on VTEC.

Yeah, that's right. I'd also hazard a guess that if you snapped a belt in VTEC, you'd also be pretty safe as the oil pressure would drop & cause the locking pin(s) to unlock & revert to nanna spec cam.
When I got my car the timing was out a few teeth on the exhaust camshaft & I think 1 tooth out on the intake.
I've also seen cases of people having got their cams well off timing (like to the point the car won't start) and there was no valve-piston fornication.

[Grrrrrrr!]

That doesn't make any sense to me. where is the oil pressure going to go? The crank will still be turning so the oil pump will keep pressure up. Even if the computer switches off the solenoid immediately (assuming it can detect the broken belt) the pressure isnt going to drop in the 10ms or so before one of the pistons gets to TDC and gives a valve a good morning kiss.

[Mr Revhead]

People do use them for racing, I use mine for racing, I can point my finger at a few other people too. There's a Honda racing competition (I don't know what it's called) that was run last year (or was it this year?)
You look over seas & there's plenty of Honda racing, take State-side.
They also have a honda only race series, Honda's are very prominant in drag racing - both pro & 'amature'

im not talking about street car races at meremere.....

and yes theres a lot of parts in the states, all bolt on credit card racer stuff, not talking about that either.
i mean proper race cars, not street driven. circuit racing etc.

And as for VTEC being 'negated' when you upgrade cams, not really.

see above...... thats not in the context im talking about.
for a race engine, vtec isnt needed.

[Lith]

and yes theres a lot of parts in the states, all bolt on credit card racer stuff, not talking about that either.
i mean proper race cars, not street driven. circuit racing etc.

He did mention the Honda Racing series - which is, funnily enough - a racing series full of Hondas. SS2000 has a bunch of Hondas at the pointy end of the track. Hell, my flatmate has a street Integra which at the last Toyspeed track day at manfeild I am pretty sure he was competitive with AE86 race cars around the track.

[RS13]

And as for VTEC being 'negated' when you upgrade cams, not really.

see above...... thats not in the context im talking about.
for a race engine, vtec isnt needed.

VTEC is removed on race motors. With huge cams, its' pretty much on VTEC full time, no get-nanna-to-bingo economy cam lobes there!

Yeah, that's right. I'd also hazard a guess that if you snapped a belt in VTEC, you'd also be pretty safe as the oil pressure would drop & cause the locking pin(s) to unlock & revert to nanna spec cam.

No, I've also seen the results of a cambelt letting go on a B16A whilst on VTEC, not pretty!