It continues. 4age vs. b16a

Paulio · Post by **Paulio** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:56 pm

Dont kill this post.

(I know im sick of 4age turbo talk too)

As most of you should know, the turbo vtec is becomming more and more popular and it isn't a slow piece of shit if you've experienced it first hand.

Their high compression combined with vtec and the light tin cans, those things haul ass for what it is and I dont really want to be beaten by them.
It's simple enough just pumping up the pounds a bit but why should we when they dont have to.

If anyone is interested and it isn't a stupid idea, I think a few of us should come together to help create 1600/1800cc turbo engines that will surely beat the rivals.

Paul

solitaire · Post by **solitaire** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:58 pm

wont a 7agte do that?

or get technical and make a 7agtze?

How long does a high compression crap-tech last with a turbo strapped to it?

Paulio · Post by **Paulio** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:06 pm

Depends on the workmanship.

A good mate has a b16a vtec turbo, he's built the engine from scratch, still runs standard pistons and an a honda ecu he's tuned himself, has been running 10psi for it's 8 months or so of life and it's never missed a beat. That thing is goes $&#$% nuts ;-)

solitaire · Post by **solitaire** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:15 pm

it seems really strange to me that any engine running high compression can run 10psi continually...

I know 1998 had his running well but there is a reason people generally buy new pistons when they go turbo...

No water injection/methonal or anything?

solitaire · Post by **solitaire** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:16 pm

Oh and 1998's small port was absolutely insane... never rode in your friends honka but this thing was mental

~SlideWays~ · Post by **~SlideWays~** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:25 pm

Vtec is a better flowing head and high compression + 10psi is going to go a lot better than a low comp 4agze with the same boost.

Simple fact is that Vtec a huge advantage. But the rest of the engine isn't going to be as strong/reliable as a good 4age, neiher are the honda gbox's.

Paulio · Post by **Paulio** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:26 pm

He's a switch on cookie that's why. Nothing fancy just custom shit he has done himself. Even if they run semi or fully forged pistons it's still going to be nuts and maybe it's time toyota steps up a bit to match it. All this new VTiR uncaps caps honda shit. bloody hell.

~SlideWays~ · Post by **~SlideWays~** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:31 pm

Im sure Mr Toyota will read your post then invest millions to design something to rival vtec...while not breaking honda's patent on the design :lol:

Caveman · Post by **Caveman** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:34 pm

solitaire wrote:Oh and 1998's small port was absolutely insane... never rode in your friends honka but this thing was mental

haha thanks, went a bit faster with a stronger clutch :wink:

basically with 8psi I was faster than a manual sti wrx with intake/exhaust

internally stock b16 turbo would be more powerful than internally stock 4age

even modified they may still make the same peak power but b16 turbo will be faster because quicker spool AND good topend

I dont know much about b16 reliability (crank, rods, etc) although from what I hear and have seen they are pretty good.

4age turbo is still cool tho :twisted:

actually anything turbod increases coolness

solitaire · Post by **solitaire** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:57 pm

Sorry... youll have to educate me here... in what way is vtec different to other car manufacturer variable valve timing? i thought it was all the same effectively? or do honda simply have a better way of doing it?

Caveman · Post by **Caveman** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:11 pm

oh and forged pistons vs cast

the advantage with forged is they are tougher and more resistant to detonation which is a big killer on fi motors. they can also take more heat before melting (note heat is not temperature :wink:

)

however you can help prevent det by cooling the cylinders better. oil cooler, bigger water volume, water injection, less advance, colder plugs all help but the most common form is running rich a/f mixture.

if your happy with 8psi on a 4age (still pretty good mass flow thanks to good breathing 4age head), moderate power output then stock cast items are fine if the compression isnt too high (if it is a simple fix is a thicker copper gasket). if you want to push your motor to the limits then you'll probably want forged items bacause as soon as a motor starts the knock it'll only take half a second to destroy a piston.

Another reason for people replacing pistons is to change the compression ratio. forged items are more common dished compared to cast.

vvega or fivebob will be able to go into details on forged vs cast

this is a good read http://forums.toyspeed.org.nz/viewtopic.php?t=18495&highlight=forged+4agze

Caveman · Post by **Caveman** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:18 pm

solitaire wrote:Sorry... youll have to educate me here... in what way is vtec different to other car manufacturer variable valve timing? i thought it was all the same effectively? or do honda simply have a better way of doing it?

honda have two seperate lobes for vtec (well 3 lobes for two valves, two for low rpm, one for high rpm). They modify lift, timing and duration. vvt only modifys cam timing on the intake side.

ive got no idea what mivec or vvti-l do :lol:

but more new cars are coming out with similar technology. basically honda was ahead in the late 80's - 90'sin terms of japanese n/a street power.

Paulio · Post by **Paulio** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:38 pm

Hondas iVtec and Toyotas VVTL-i are almost the same thing but that aint 4age. point is, can we match it?

OMG so shiny! · Post by **Dell'Orto** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:48 pm

solitaire wrote:it seems really strange to me that any engine running high compression can run 10psi continually...

The Honda motors seem fairly tough units, one of the guys here has had his Integra turbo'd for some time now, making really good power with pretty much just a turbo slapped on the side. Has a Link and bigger injectors of course, but nothing internal.

solitaire · Post by **solitaire** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:49 pm

I suppose it all comes down to what you are trying to achieve... its apples and oranges by the sound of it...

"matching it" is a bit broad of a statement to make... are you talking peak power? powerband? or 0-100?

GorGasm · Post by **GorGasm** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:57 pm

Bit of a dodgy topic again.

the honda motor will always have the edge with vtec. But theres no reason why you couldnt get a 4age up to the same power numbers as a vtec.

vtec style tech has been implemented by toyota and nissan as VVTL and mitsi as Mivec. 4age never came with the same tech.

Lith · Post by **Lith** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:17 pm

Don't try and beat Honda at their high flowing small engine stakes. If you want to do with your Toyota what someone with a Honda can't - get a 1JZ or a 2JZ, bolt on a big turbo and run a bunch of boost through it with appropriate fuelling and tuning and smile like an idiot when some guy with a stock B-series + turbo tries to race you.

4AGE < B-series. 2JZ > * :lol:

rage · Post by **rage** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:07 pm

stock turbo setups on 4age or honda vtec or mivec 4g92, the honda vtec will always win out on top because of their superior vvti technology.

when you start to build the motors with strengthened internals, the contest becames a lot more closer.

theres a b18c pushing 300+ kw
4g93 mivec pushing 300+ kw
7agte pushing 313kw

all about even given the price range and budgets spent on these various setups. beyond that, i dont believe its up to the engine and the strength of it, but rather the money and the extremes which each engine builder wants to explore. ie $$$$$$$.

flygt4 · Post by **flygt4** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:28 pm

even though mine has been rebuilt my setup is essentially a standard bottom end with gze pistons,and a 20v head.
i figure its roughly equivalent to a stock bottom end b series turbo setup with thoughtful modifications.
it makes the same power as a lot of b18 turbo setups, ive had a best of 218kw atw.A B series with a decent turbo+ecu would make around the same power @ 10-12psi where i require 20psi due to the difference in compression.

by using the toyota engine i have the disadvantage of hugely sacrificed response and need to run shitloads more boost. the advantage i have is i can use a larger turbo at any stage and still run significantly more boost on my engine, probly up to 300kw atw.

the hondas have the disadvantage of being limited how much boost they can use to make their power,less headroom in the tuning and how much power they can make, and the arguable fact of limited reliability, which im not yet fully convinced of if tuned well and driven sensibly.

oh and once you get into fully built engines it doesnt really matter which is better , it just depends how much money you want to spend.

ps. theres always exceptions but a couple of stock bottem ended dyno ponies dont really constitute solid proof that every turbo b18 will make 60000hp atw.

matt dunn · Post by **matt dunn** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:55 pm

not_paul_from_waiheke wrote: maybe it's time toyota steps up a bit to match it. All this new VTiR uncaps caps honda sh*t. bloody hell.

The engine I have built and now run in my car uses 100% genuine toyota parts, and makes 280hp ATW on 15psi.

The class I run in also has a fairly well built Honda 1800cc turbo Civic,
and in a straight line there is almost nothing between us,
and that's with him having 200cc more than me.

An engine is only half the power you make,
it all the crap you strap on the side that makes all the differences,
manifold and turbo choice and design, tuning, etc etc.