3sgte (ST185) Knock in top of engine on Cold startup

[Norty]

hey after boosted_62 said he had Big end bearing issues and it would knock on cold start on his first st185, i got worried, so i started to sort out if this was the case with mine, i had 6 different people look at it and they all said it was coming from the top of the car under the rocker cover. Like a lifter or something, speaking with a former Toyota expert, he told me that i should take off the Repco oil filter and use a Toyota one, and that will take it away, he said the repco one was crap.

So leading onto my question, does anyone have an experience with the issue, if its a case of just buying something as simple as that then sweet but was interested in your guys experiences with top engine knock and oil filters etc, on these 3sgte engines. i know that the oil filter sits upright so it does make sense (read alot of other forums and they said oil filter too), but want to double check, my other mate that built the engine was just going to rip off the cover to check for blockage etc.

The sound has been there for about a year now and its not any louder and does not seem to be getting worst.

Thanks DK

I am running Castrol Magnatec as my oil. FYI

[Ae92typeX]

I know repco filters will get bagged, but I have put one on one of these and it didnt experience anything you describe (or any other probs lol).

either ripping off the top, or changing filter are both cheap and easy so go for it.

[Norty]

Yeah i am going to do the filter thing. I dont know if it will fix it tho thats why i am asking for other peoples knowledge

GIVE ME YOU KNOWLEDGE!!()(@)()

[Boosted_162]

You will probably find that your filter doesnt have an anti-drain device thingamajig, which means the oil drains out of it while sitting. I used a repco filter on the motor which just came out, i found i had oil pressure problems on startup. If indeed it is this, try a new filter (im pretty certain TGP and TRD items are the ones you'd want), otherwise Sergei has a good setup where the car wont start till the oil light goes off.

[Akane]

Mine knocks on startup, which i totally suspect it's a big end bearing. If I leave the car out for the night, the next morning when i crank, it'll knock for about 2-3 sec, I tried pulling the EFI fuse out, and crank, it won't knock, maybe something to do with the oil system.

[Norty]

Well $22.50 for the oil filter and its still there, so yeah might be something to do with the oil system :/ the toyota guy said it might just be piston slap, but i have tested and if i leave it for 1 hour then it will do it. totally sounds like its under the rocker cover and not down in the engine.

My mate that built the engine is here and we are going to see if we can suss where its coming from.

Bloody interwarmer is in the way so it makes it harder :/

Totally gutted at this stage about the whole thing, so close yet so far

[Ae92typeX]

no possibility of a noisy cold start injector? thay can be tappy. You suggest above other said rocker cover, but some noises can travel a little in engines. Just a thought.
At least you dont have to worry about oil and filter for 5k now...

[Norty]

Ok, well i am going to take a video this morning and put it up on youtube, hopefully if you guys watch it might give you all an idea of what is happening.

*update* was alot quieter this morning, either it was camera shy, or maybe a good drive last night and that oil filter finally got things moving, and whats left is just damage.

GRRR @ cars.

[postfach]

*update* was alot quieter this morning, either it was camera shy, or maybe a good drive last night and that oil filter finally got things moving, and whats left is just damage.

when you changed the filter did you change the oil also? if so your previous oil may have been too thin. i used 10w30 on my engine last time and got a bad case of the knocks when cold starting, changed to 15w40 this time and it has almost completely gone.

[Norty]

*update* was alot quieter this morning, either it was camera shy, or maybe a good drive last night and that oil filter finally got things moving, and whats left is just damage.

when you changed the filter did you change the oil also? if so your previous oil may have been too thin. i used 10w30 on my engine last time and got a bad case of the knocks when cold starting, changed to 15w40 this time and it has almost completely gone.

Yeah the prev oil and current are the same brand of oil, castrol magnatec.

video i recorded this morning still has the knock, i am uploading to youtube now. it has a tap at the start but you can hear the knock still if you listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlhduCEoYyQ

when its ready take a look, *fingers crossed*

[Toymota]

The sounds that your car makes sounds pretty similar to my ST185. Except it sounded like your car only made it for a few seconds just after it started up. I only remember noticing it making that rattle after I did an oil change on the car only about a week after buying it and putting a Repco filter in.

For me it might just be the filter but I wouldn't be surprised if its the engine because I'm sure its on it's way out.

I thought that the Repco one would be pretty decent seeing as though it costs so much.

[Akane]

Exactly same as mine, actually mine's a bit louder.

Still goes hard tho

[Norty]

The sounds that your car makes sounds pretty similar to my ST185. Except it sounded like your car only made it for a few seconds just after it started up. I only remember noticing it making that rattle after I did an oil change on the car only about a week after buying it and putting a Repco filter in.

For me it might just be the filter but I wouldn't be surprised if its the engine because I'm sure its on it's way out.

I thought that the Repco one would be pretty decent seeing as though it costs so much.

Well the head is rebuilt, the bottom end was meant to of been also, when we did the head, we noticed that the hone marks where still on the sides of the cylinder walls, pistons where good etc... so *shrug*, it sounded like it was under the rocker cover but maybe it is down lower.

[Luke28]

My Levin makes the same noise. only lasts a few seconds after starting..

[Norty]

Exactly same as mine, actually mine's a bit louder.

Still goes hard tho

Hey how long has it been doing it?,

i talked to one of the guys at toyota and he said it might be some piston slap and that was common with these engines and not to worry. now either he wanted me to destroy the car totally so i would need to buy stuff from him or this is correct but i have not seem much talk about this kind of thing on this forum.

[Akane]

Mine happened about 2000kms-3000kms ago, I hardly drive the car anymore (the Silvia has aircon, WOF/Rego, and way better on the gas)

My MR2 has a leakly headgasket (a bit of gunk on the oil filler cap, overheats if I go hard for too long (like twilight road)).

So what I think mine has happened is the water/moisture has gone into the oil and wore out the bearings on the main crank.

I 1st thought it was the valvetrain but appearntly the shims are made out of some kind of ginzu 2000 super ninja hardout material that won't wear out.

I think it also could be a tired oil pump, not pumping the lube around the system as that knock is only audiable during 1st start up in the morning (or if the car has been sitting for more than 8hrs).

I don't know what your mechanic is, but I have a replacement engine for my MR2 (which I'm STILl too lazy to put it in).

Doubt it's piston slap tho.

[Norty]

So what I think mine has happened is the water/moisture has gone into the oil and wore out the bearings on the main crank.

That may of happened to mine when i blew the head on it.

might use one of those stethoscopes to see if i can hear where its coming from.

also checked oil and filter for metal and it seems to be good, i will also cut open the one i swapped out yesterday just to be sure.

[Rob]

I would like to point out that repco oil filters are made by ryco and I have a z386 (rz386) "r" for repco on my carib and it has an anti drain valve.

[Norty]

this was a reply from someone overseas as to why i have this knock

there are many reasons why an engine could make bad sounds. i wouldn't say that the oil is too thin cause i use Castrol RS and my engine sounds fine. the sound on the video is not very distinctive. the car should crank and fire better, there was too much cranking before the engine fired. there could be a problem with your timings that can easily make the engine knock. do the diagnostics on the sensors, short TE1 and E1 in the diagnostics port under the hood, turn the key, and count your check engine light flashes, specificially look if it will flash 52 or 53 (knock sensor). if it does there is definitely something wrong with the timings, 3s-gte tends to jump the timing belt (your car should run slower, maybe have bad exhaust). or there is a fault in the sensor and the ECU can't fix the timings. i'm most definitely certain that there is nothing wrong with engine mechanicals cause there would be an increase in loudness and sharpness of the sound.

[fivebob]

Don't listen to them, they have no idea about 3S-GTEs

For a start Code 52 is the only knock sensor code on a 3S that I've ever seen, code 53 is usually for engines with a second knock sensor or one that detect ECU knk circuit failures. Secondly those codes will cause a Check Engine light to come on and power to be drastically reduced as the ECU retards timing, so a failed knock sensor is extremely unlikely to cause knock.

Also your engine starts just fine, there's not too much cranking at all, depending on where it stops the engine may have to complete up to 2 full revolutions before it syncs the timing, this is just a fact of life with the type of ignition triggers that the 3S uses.

As to the knock sound, it's a bit hard to tell but I couldn't hear anything bad on the tape. Whatever it was went away as soon as oil pressure came up so it's not likely to be anything major. Most engines will knock slightly on start up, more so as they get older and the bearings (both crank and cam) wear. If you want to locate the sound better, try using the screwdriver as a stethoscope when you start the engine, or just listen and determine if the noise is at crank speed (main/big end bearings) or at 1/2 speed (cam bearings or possibly lobes/buckets)