F1 and Toyota...

[Mr Revhead]

um dude..... your waaaay off there

[fivebob]

Toyota stole lots of aerodynamic data from ferrari (small, dynamic and very R&D happy)

That's the first time I've ever heard of the modern day Ferrari team described as small. Their budget is nearly as big as Toyota's, it just that, after nearly 60 years in F1, they know where to spend it

If you've ever followed F1 you'd know that Ferrari has also had some very lean patches, as has Williams, McLaren and countless other teams. It's not an easy game to succeed at, especiallly if they keep changing the rules.

really are only moving backwards for the past 2 yrs.

That's more due to the engine change than anything else, they had a really good year with the end of the V10, their engine was probably one of the best that year, they just haven't been able to get the V8 working, and they do need better drivers.

[Jdawg]

They only need 1 better driver, and since when has F1 been all about winning?
Lots more goes on behind the scenes. Toyota believe they are receiving benefits from F1 or they wouldn't be there. Williams are showing the V8 has potential with a good chassis. And, I would imagine, many a Toyaota fan would be enjoying the bragging rights of being the leading Japanese manufacturer

[Mr Revhead]

If you've ever followed F1 you'd know that Ferrari has also had some very lean patches, as has Williams, McLaren and countless other teams. It's not an easy game to succeed at, especiallly if they keep changing the rules.

damn straight

all of those have gone through seasons where a top 8 is welcome!

[solitaire]

Toyota are really just a big fat corporate which are never dynamic, look at IBM, Microsoft or any large org, they simply suck at anything technical.

You have no idea what you are talking about...

Toyota stole lots of aerodynamic data from ferrari (small, dynamic and very R&D happy) with some of the engineers they brought from them. Thats when they did good for atleast 2 races in Bahrain and stuff, since then they have lost gascone and only have medore drivers and really are only moving backwards for the past 2 yrs.

Have you actually researched any of what you have just said or are you simply repeating what youve heard you mates say?


I may be dreaming but im really happy that toyota are in F1... to me it indicates that they are trying to get a more sporty reputation - and probably make some nice new cars to match... which can only be good new for us toyspeeders

[rallyrulz]

Toyota are really just a big fat corporate which are never dynamic, look at IBM, Microsoft or any large org, they simply suck at anything technical.

You have no idea what you are talking about...

I know exactly what im talking about, and I know exactly how corporates work and the demize of IBM's success.

Have you actually researched any of what you have just said or are you simply repeating what youve heard you mates say?

Of course I researched it! If you had followed the F1 like I had since toyota entered, then you would have known about this. Do you want me to find the official articles?

p.s. dont start a flame war for the sake of it, we are discussing 'our' opinions on what we feel about toyota in F1.

http://www.cartoday.com/content/motorsport/formula1/singlepage.asp?in=7739
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_F1#Industrial_espionage

[Mr Revhead]

yes please find the aritcles and evidence to support your comments on the way toyota work and the theft by toyota of ferrari data

[Snoozin]

There was some contorversy regarding "theft" of Ferrari data by Toyota it appears, there's a few articles floating around the net regarding it.

Wikipedia has a small section on it in their Toyota F1 article, which references these two articles:

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/14217/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 618260.stm

It was also common knowledge that Toyota did indeed "buy" one of Ferrari's engineers early on as well.

Still, it sounds more like pure speculation to me, as opposed to hard facts.

[fivebob]

I remember the incident very well. The engineers that Toyota hired from Ferrari were the suspect parties, and while no culpability on Toyota's part was proven, it didn't look very good for them.

In 2003, Police raided Toyota’s Formula One factory in Germany on suspicion of industrial espionage involving Ferrari. One Toyota engineer was reportedly arrested after police searched the aerodynamic division of the team’s factory.

Police spokesman Reinhardt Schuettler said: “It’s correct that Toyota was searched and one person was taken into custody.”

Toyota is suspected of obtaining technical data from Ferrari from an engineer who left the Italian team two years ago.

“Toyota motor sport is not the target of the investigation. It involves an employee of the aerodynamic division,” then Toyota Racing team boss Ove Andersson stated.

Earlier this year German prosecutors filed charges against three Toyota employees, who used illegal software which was the property of Ferrari even though they knew it was illegal.

During the 2002 and 2003 seasons, whispers in the pit lane suggested that the Toyota Formula One racer was similar in design to that of Ferrari (indeed, there were rumors that Toyota were working from plans with the Ferrari logo in the title block). Named in the changes were former Toyota F1 team boss Ove Andersson, former designer Gustav Brunner and aerodynamics team leader René Hilhorst. The material in question is understood to be CFD (computational fluid dynamics) source-code from Ferrari’s aerodynamic simulations.

A court in Köln will now decide whether the three must stand trial. In Italy meanwhile, a trial date of April 28 was set for engineers Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini. The two left Ferrari to join Toyota in 2000 and 2003, respectively, and face charges in Modena of gaining unauthorized access to Ferrari computers and misappropriating files.

[solitaire]

I know exactly what im talking about, and I know exactly how corporates work and the demize of IBM's success.

You dont speak corporate - what corporate do you work for?

I have seen just as many corporate clients move from HP to IBM in the past 5 years as ive seen go the other way... They might not be doing as well as they have done in the past but demise is not the word - the fact that quite a few other corporate IT suppliers like to bribe CIO's with french villas and the like have cost them millions of pounds a year as well.

Do you want me to find the official articles?

Yep, articles please, that url you included was dated Jan 2006 and all the says is that toyota has not been charged... a year has passed since then there must be something else to prove your point.

p.s. dont start a flame war for the sake of it, we are discussing 'our' opinions on what we feel about toyota in F1.

This isnt a flame war mate... There are usually a lot of personal attacks with flame wars,

1. You said that toyota are not dynamic and suck at anything technical - Being a top earner car company and having a reputation of reliability and value for money suggests that you are incorrect.
2. You said the microsoft are not dynamic and suck at anything technical - Where do you want me to start, people who bag microsoft really have no idea of how IT business functions - they are the best at what they do.
3. You said that ferrari where small
4. You cant steal staff, you can only loose them

Most of what you said sounded like stuff you would pick up at a barbeque, i.e. popular ignorant opinion that has not been adequately researched.

ps. I have been watching toyota F1 from the start also,

[deaf_rattle]

ps. I have been watching toyota F1 from the start also,

you look awfully young for your age

[solitaire]

ps. I have been watching toyota F1 from the start also,

you look awfully young for your age

Was i wearing a hat that night? my hair tells the real story!

Did they have a team back in the day? Ive only been watching since they started up 2002ish... i forget exactly when it was - my bad

[deaf_rattle]

ha, my bad, i didnt see toyota f1 in there
as you were

[fivebob]

I've probably been watching F1 for a lot longer than anyone else on here, even seen real F1 cars race in NZ

Cheating, or rather pushing the rule boundaries, is very common and all teams do it. Maybe not as blatant as the Toyota episode, but have you ever notices that when one team has an advantage it doesn't take long before the others adpot the same technology, even though the teams go to extraordinary lengths to hide new inventions.

[fivebob]

Did they have a team back in the day? Ive only been watching since they started up 2002ish... i forget exactly when it was - my bad

Sort of... it was called the Yamaha team

But that was only in the '90s, Honda have been in since the 60's

[solitaire]

Did anyone play grand prix manager? awesome game... stealing technology was a heavy theme

[2jayzgte]

So people do you think Toyota still should be there I see Jarno Truilli qualifyied well but again could'nt finish the race due to reliability issues and as for Ralf well he looked like he was putting around in 16 th place and was'nt doing much at all now they were both moaning about how bad there cars were so seriously Toyota need to have a good look at themselves and maybe seriously look at if they should be in F1 ..Because at the moment there an absolute joke with that huge $$$$ budget of there's its almost like a alchoholic there just pissing it against the wall for no gain.....

[solitaire]

Dude, your posting in the wrong forum.... try nz hondas

seriously.... a lot of us are die hard fans, we believe in the brand and keep getting up to watch races because we know that they will start winning at some point...

Toyota could adopt the same thinking as you, say its all too hard and give up, but that would be the wrong thing to do...

if the f1 team is anything like toyota itself they will keep pushing at it until they find a winning combination

[2jayzgte]

Dude, your posting in the wrong forum.... try nz hondas

seriously.... a lot of us are die hard fans, we believe in the brand and keep getting up to watch races because we know that they will start winning at some point...

Toyota could adopt the same thinking as you, say its all too hard and give up, but that would be the wrong thing to do...

if the f1 team is anything like toyota itself they will keep pushing at it until they find a winning combination

No my friend this is the right place you have to take the good with the bad and at the moment Toyota are just very bad though but don't worry though as soon as they right the ship I'll be the first one to give credit where credit is due...

Toyota seriously need to do some definite restructuring..Hire Michael Schumacher as a driver and let him build a team of engineers designers and mechanics around him I'll bet you if they did something like that they'd go along way to righting the ship because at the moment the just keeping there head above water..

Where as if you look at teams like Red Bull,Honda and Williams are all showing good progress and look like there going foward whereas Toyota lare in Stall mode 1 foot foward 3 backwards its really hard to watch with there huge budget its like the blind leading the blind....

[fivebob]

Where as if you look at teams like Red Bull,Honda and Williams are all showing good progress and look like there going foward whereas Toyota lare in Stall mode 1 foot foward 3 backwards

LOL, Honda going forward, you must be watching a different series to the one I see... Toyota 5Pts...Honda 0Pts...and you think Toyota should be emulating Honda

Toyota are improving, Trulli's 6th position on the grid shows that. Ok so they had a fuel pressure problem that put them out of the race, but that's motorsport, shit happens, just ask Kimi about reliability issues in the top teams