mega grunty honda motors

[fivebob]

also I have to say this but if we are talking small motors then I have seen a 1500 (or maby 1600cc) V12 Formula one motor. well over 1000hp. but those motors blew up on the start line soooo meany times!

"Seen" as in actually physically viewed one with your own eyes?

You'd be doing very well if you had, because, AFAIK, no such beast ever existed. Closest would be the Ferrari supercharged V12 of 1950 which had around 300HP, or possibly the 1960's NA flat 12 which had around 200HP. No sub 2l engine with 12 cylinders ever came close to 1000hp, which is in the realms of the Turbo era cars.

FWIW very few F1 engines blow up "on the start line" they wait for a few laps before that happens, F1 clutches are a different story though

[Mr Revhead]

f1 over 1000 would have to be turbo....
and afaik they were all either 4 cyl, or V6

[Racinghard]

might hav been a x F1 motor. it was this motor fatory is England. lookd alittle bit biger than my 4age but with 2 big as turbos on each side of it.

FWIW very few F1 engines blow up "on the start line" they wait for a few laps before that happens, F1 clutches are a different story though

and it did on these cars coz with so much presure from the turbos. if they went on and off the gas fast a couple of times then they would. just the same as a top fueler.

[fivebob]

might hav been a x F1 motor. it was this motor fatory is England. lookd alittle bit biger than my 4age but with 2 big as turbos on each side of it.

The only thing remotely like what you describe would be the BRM V16 supercharged.

There were no V12 F1 turbo engines, and no English made turbo engines apart from the 4 cylinder Hart and the V6 Ford Cosworth.

FYI

1947-1953
Power range up to 425 hp

Alta inline-4 1.5 L Compressor
Alfa Romeo inline-8 1.5 L Compressor
Bristol inline-6 2.0 L
BRM V16 1.5 L
ERA inline-6 1.5 L Compressor
Ferrari inline-4 2.0 L (F2)
Ferrari V12 1.5 L Compressor
Ferrari V12 2.0 L (F2)
Ferrari V12 4.5 L
Lea-Francis inline-4 2.0 L (F2)
Maserati inline-4 1.5 L Compressor
Maserati inline-6 2.0 L (F2)
Simca-Gordini inline-4 1.5 L Compressor
Talbot-Lago inline-6 4.5 L

1954-1960
Engine size was reduced for 2.5 L. 750 cc supercharged cars were allowed but no constructor built one for the World Championship.
Power range up to 290 hp

Alta inline-4 2.5 L
BRM inline-4 2.5 L
Coventry Climax inline-4 2.0 L
Coventry Climax inline-4 2.5 L
Ferrari inline-4 2.5 L
Ferrari V6 2.5 L
Lancia V8 2.5 L
Maserati inline-6 2.5 L
Maserati V12 2.5 L
Mercedes double-inline-4 2.5 L
Vanwall inline-4 2.5 L

1961-1965
Introduced in 1961 new reduced engine 1.5 L formula.
Power range 150 - 225 hp

ATS V8 1.5 L
BRM V8 1.5 L
Coventry Climax inline-4 1.5 L
Coventry Climax V8 1.5 L
Coventry Climax Flat-16 1.5 L (never raced)
Ferrari V6 1.5 L
Ferrari V8 1.5 L
Ferrari Flat-12 1.5 L
Honda V12 1.5 L aircooled
Porsche Flat-4 1.5 L aircooled
Porsche Flat-8 1.5 L aircooled

1966-1986
In 1966, the FIA increased engine capacity to 3.0 L atmospheric and 1.5 L supercharged engines. In 1969, Lotus made a few unsuccessful experiments with a Pratt & Whitney turbine fitted to chassis which had also 4WD.
Power range 390 to 500 hp, turbos 500 to 900 in race, in qualifiying up to 1500 hp

Alfa Romeo V8 1.5 L Turbo
Alfa Romeo V8 3.0 L
Alfa Romeo Flat-12 3.0 L
Alfa Romeo V12 3.0 L
BMW inline-4 1.5 L Turbo
BRM H16 3.0 L
BRM V12 3.0 L
Ferrari V6 1.5 L Turbo
Ferrari V12 3.0 L
Ferrari Flat-12 3.0 L
Ford V6 1.5 L Turbo
Ford Cosworth DFV V8 3.0 L
Ford Cosworth DFY V8 3.0 L
Hart inline-4 1.5 L Turbo
Honda V6 1.5 L Turbo
Maserati V12 3.0 L
Matra V12 3.0 L
Repco V8 3.0 L
Renault Gordini V8 (never raced) 3.0 L
Renault Gordini V6 1.5 L Turbo
TAG-Porsche V6 1.5 L Turbo
Tecno Flat-12 3.0 L
Weslake V12 3.0 L
Zakspeed inline-4 1.5 L Turbo

FWIW very few F1 engines blow up "on the start line" they wait for a few laps before that happens, F1 clutches are a different story though

and it did on these cars coz with so much presure from the turbos. if they went on and off the gas fast a couple of times then they would. just the same as a top fueler.

The Turbo era was my favourite time in F1, watched almost every race on TV during that time, and there were very few (if any) engine failures off the line. There were quite a few spectacular turbo fires later in the race though.

The method of failure you describe just didn't happen.

[Racinghard]

I neva said that it was made in england. just said they had it there. they had a shed full of old fast motors.
may have been the v6 motor then. (sorry) but still, that amount of power in a 1.5 L is pritty good for way back then.
and about the blowing up thing, neva seen them do it. (It was way before my time) but it was what i have herd from all they guys over there.
I shouldn't beleve all what I hear.

[Racinghard]

anyways, it's off topic.

the way that it is that 240hp from a honda isn't the same as a toyota that has 240hp. u would be able to get 240 from a honda but it will get eaten by a toyota with 240 since the power comes out different.

[Lith]

this is a thread on high power honda engines
so lets head back on topic

btw im still waiting for 1600cc b16as with 240hp

You want more than the link to a DVD which documents how to build a street driven 1600cc streetable B16A which runs on 91 using almost completely standard bottom and makes around that power?

the way that it is that 240hp from a honda isn't the same as a toyota that has 240hp. u would be able to get 240 from a honda but it will get eaten by a toyota with 240 since the power comes out different.

Thats probably because any Toyota motor making the same power as any given Honda motor is typically relying on turbocharging, bigger displacement - or a combination of the two. With either of those things working with you, you will end up with a better power delivery.

[Mr Revhead]

yeah..... cant see any details or proof etc in that link

btw USA 91 isnt 91 here.... its closer to 96
MON and PON

[Defective]

the way that it is that 240hp from a honda isn't the same as a toyota that has 240hp. u would be able to get 240 from a honda but it will get eaten by a toyota with 240 since the power comes out different.

ahh....... never mind

[barryogen]

btw USA 91 isnt 91 here.... its closer to 96
MON and PON

Don't forget RON

[Lith]

yeah..... cant see any details or proof etc in that link

How much evidence do you want? A B16A built up and tuned right in front of your face? Be realistic.

btw USA 91 isnt 91 here.... its closer to 96
MON and PON

Yeah I know, but you'll find thats still what we call pump gas in NZ. Put a bunch of "98RON" in the tank and tune it to suit and you'll probably find a few more hp.

[Mr Revhead]

no i want info like you can find for heaps of other things... like the 4age etc

a link to a dvd where they say they do "this" but no details means nothing....

im not saying its bs, but as i originaly said... id like some good tech info on it.
iv looked, but so far theres very little around about these 240hp 1600s
i genuinely want to see what it takes to do it. and so far all i can find is stroker kits and forced induction

[Tranquil]

Ahh the days when F1 was actually the pinnacle of motorsport. Today's F1 may aswell be Formula 3000. DTM, as far as im concerned is far more interesting from a technology & development point of view.


Fuel that gave you cancer if you looked at it the wrong way
Driver's leg's ahead of the front axle
1000+kw in Qualifying trim, 800+ for the race.
Head's welded to block's
Ground effect
Fan cars
A 6 wheeled car
'Real' F1 champions like Senna, Prost & Piqet.

Back then the sport was innovative, now its just a yawn fest. With all the development going into aero packages intended to create dirty air behind the vehicle. And these day's drivers have about as much personality as a boiled potato.
I must admit however, Hamilton is a breath of fresh air, I find my self actually interested in F1 for the first time in many, many years.

The 'good' for back then comment doesn’t really mean much. Pre-war Auto Union car's were producing over 500hp+ with less than 4500cc of displacement. Power has never been a problem, It's the packaging of the engine, ancillaries and transmission into a useable race car that wasn’t overcome until the 50's - early 60's. The other issue was transmitting the torque through comparatively small tyres. Tyre technology was pushed to its absolute limits during the 84-88 period.

Ironic that Honda made what many consider to be the greatest turbo supercharged competition engine of all time. And their only turbo supercharged production engine is featured in a FR luxury car (feel free to correct me on this)!


Re the 200hp b16a, who really cares? At the end of the day when it comes to the b16x vs 4ag, There has never been a major single seat formula powered by b16x's. Why is that you ask? Because the valve train wont survive WOT at max rpm for three hours on end. Competition is the true test.. 4ag has passed this test countless times.

[Mr Revhead]

honda did the city turbo
what else did they do?

[Tranquil]

oh yeah i forgot about the city turbo

i think theirs a v6 Trubo in some of the Legend models

[Defective]

and honda jazz.... but thats just badge engineering so dosnt really count.

[deanis]

At the end of the day when it comes to the b16x vs 4ag, There has never been a major single seat formula powered by b16x's. Why is that you ask? Because the valve train wont survive WOT at max rpm for three hours on end. Competition is the true test.. 4ag has passed this test countless times.

bullshit. guys race civics round the nurburg ring all day long. the reason its not in a single seater is the motor spins backwards to pretty much every other motor on the planet. good luck finding a gearbox to bolt it into.

[deanis]

just for fun here is my dyno plot. stock b18c block/rods/crank with wiesco 12.5cr pistons. stock b16a head (not ported or type r spec) with type r valves and springs(standard valve springs wont go to 9000) crane stage 2 cams. some toyota 20v blactop quads and a good header and 2.5 inch exhaust.

everyone loves this picture.

[Tranquil]

"guys race"

Is that another term for a FIA sanctioned motorsport event? With professional teams operating with unlimited budgets competing to be the best of the best? No, it’s a bunch of dude's going for a drive around the ring in their street / semi race prepared cars

The motor spinning backwards im not sure how that’s relevant. If it was worthwhile, a transmission would be fabricated. The simple fact no one has bothered, say's everything really.

Ive got nothing against b16x...awesome engine for street applications. But 4-ag has the undeniable competition history. And is a worthy successor to the lotus twin cam as the undisputed king of 1600 DOHC engines.


Nice pic of your short block btw. Especially the lovely open deck design… im sure that loves sustained RPM


edit: spelling

[Lith]

The motor spinning backwards im not sure how that’s relevant. If it was worthwhile, a transmission would be fabricated. The simple fact no one has bothered, say's everything really.

Ive got nothing against b16x...awesome engine for street applications. But 4-ag has the undeniable competition history. And is a worthy successor to the lotus twin cam as the undisputed king of 1600 DOHC engines.

Or maybe they're cheap and plentiful enough? What motors are used in Formula Fords again? There are many superior options which could have been used for that, but the dirty Ford motor ended up being the one. These things happen, its not because the motor selected is superior.

Throw enough money at anything, even a dirty 16v 4AGE and it can make power sufficiently reliably for a given purpose. In the real world, If I wanted to race in a 1600cc class know I could go and buy something B16A2 powered - do a bunch of boltons, get an ECU on it and get it tuned and be making somewhere around the 200hp area. Or I could try and do it the hard way and buy a 4AGE/1600cc Kent Motor/Holden Torana OHC 1600cc/whatever else and throw tens of thousands of dollars and them and make a bit more power than that and claim that which ever I ended up is clearly superior because mine made more.