Wanting info on Hydrogen engine conversion

[Adamal]

With fuel prices going up, and me becoming (for some inexplicable reason) more environmentally concious, I've been wondering if perhaps hydrogen is the solution to our problems.

However, I only have limited knowledge on the stuff.
I'm interested in what it would take to convert to a hydrogen system for an internal combustion engine, what possible problems could be etc. I read something about it causing backfire on piston based engines, but it didn't go into detail.

I know there are some smart cookies here on TS (Yes, hard to believe, I know ) and was wondering if anyone could point to some reliable information that isn't overly difficult to understand for the average Joe Bloggs like me.

Not really after information on Fuel Cell's, just internal combustion stuff.

Thanks guys

[RS13]

Here ya go chap.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenand ... cm03r0.pdf

I'm quite keen on building on this as well, however I believe that fuel cell technology is going to be the way to go rather than storage.

[molex]

Short answer: Hydrogen isn't the answer. Certainly not for a combustion engine, personally I don't think fuel cells are the answer either.

Long answer: energy density by volume is miniscule compared to petrol, meaning you need to carry far more of it. To retain a decent range you need a very highly compressed double skinned incredibly strong (and thus reasonably heavy and awkward shaped) pressure vessel. To fill that tank you need a bloody big compressor, requiring pretty significant energy in itself. Hydrogen is obtained from electrolysis of water, using a lot of energy to break bonds in the H2O. That energy is a scarce resource (arguably more scarce than petrol in NZ) and is generated by a variety of means, some of which use fossil fuels anyway.

As far as I see it, Hydrogen only works with very small/light/efficient cars based off fuel cells. The hydrogen needs to be generated using clean energy e.g Nuclear. Nothing else comes close to the power requirements of a mass deployment and nothing else is as clean. Nuclear = isn't going to happen here. More fossil fuel based generation = not going to happen. Very limited potential for further hydro generation due to constrictive resource consent process leaves us in a bit of a poop situation at the moment, we couldn't afford to start producing hydrogen locally.

[fivebob]

To retain a decent range you need a very highly compressed double skinned incredibly strong (and thus reasonably heavy and awkward shaped) pressure vessel. To fill that tank you need a bloody big compressor, requiring pretty significant energy in itself.

Actually that's not true, you don't need to carry a hydrogen tank, you can use a normal fuel tank containing for example methanol, and a steam reforming unit to produce the hydrogen.

Hydrogen is obtained from electrolysis of water, using a lot of energy to break bonds in the H2O.

Nope, hydrogen in commercial quantities is produced by steam reformation of natural gas. Electrolysis is only used by those crackpots who try and make you believe you can run a car on water

[GTTpower]

Short answer: Hydrogen isn't the answer. Certainly not for a combustion engine, personally I don't think fuel cells are the answer either.

Mazda, dear I say it, has had success with their dual fuel RX8, so I cant see why it wouldnt work in an internal combustion engine (Its just harder). BMW also have developed a 7 series with a dual fuel engine.

[pc]

To retain a decent range you need a very highly compressed double skinned incredibly strong (and thus reasonably heavy and awkward shaped) pressure vessel. To fill that tank you need a bloody big compressor, requiring pretty significant energy in itself.

Actually that's not true, you don't need to carry a hydrogen tank, you can use a normal fuel tank containing for example methanol, and a steam reforming unit to produce the hydrogen.

Hydrogen is obtained from electrolysis of water, using a lot of energy to break bonds in the H2O.

Nope, hydrogen in commercial quantities is produced by steam reformation of natural gas. Electrolysis is only used by those crackpots who try and make you believe you can run a car on water

I think you missed the point.

...Nothing else comes close to the power requirements of a mass deployment and nothing else is as clean...

How would you get your methanol?

[HZRDIZ]

Coincidentally enough, I had this covnersation with someone last night. They (being whoever they are) seem to be arguing that it will be of no extra benefit and won't save any extra money because the power that is required to convert the hydrogen works would work out at teh same cost as filling your tank with petrol.

In saying that though - it's probably oil companies saying that

[fivebob]

I think you missed the point.

...Nothing else comes close to the power requirements of a mass deployment and nothing else is as clean...

Nope didn't miss the point, just didn't consider it relevant to the discussion of hydrogen use in automotive systems. I think you may misunderstand the processes involved if you think it requires a 100% clean energy system to be viable.

How would you get your methanol?

Production of methanol form syngas, which is a mixture of H2,CO & CO2 is actually quite clean

You can use the CO & CO2 waste products from fossil fuel power production, the H2 and some of the CO & CO2 comes from steam reformation of methane. The steam is also a byproduct of power generation. Is that clean enough for you, or are you looking for the Nirvana of a 100% clean system?

Also note I said like methanol. There are other feedstocks you could use with a steam reformation unit to produce the hydrogen that might be "cleaner" than methanol

[neon_spork]

To retain a decent range you need a very highly compressed double skinned incredibly strong (and thus reasonably heavy and awkward shaped) pressure vessel. To fill that tank you need a bloody big compressor, requiring pretty significant energy in itself.

Actually that's not true, you don't need to carry a hydrogen tank, you can use a normal fuel tank containing for example methanol, and a steam reforming unit to produce the hydrogen.

Hydrogen is obtained from electrolysis of water, using a lot of energy to break bonds in the H2O.

Nope, hydrogen in commercial quantities is produced by steam reformation of natural gas. Electrolysis is only used by those crackpots who try and make you believe you can run a car on water

A steam reforming unit in your car hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... hahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Are you also going to include the super high temperature furnace to fire it, the boilers to make the steam, the high pressure piping, safety relief systems and a fancy control system for it?

It is extreemly difficult to make an efficient reformer on this scale and there are a dozen ways this can explode horribly.

Even if you managed to make it efficient it still uses more energy to make the hydrogen than you get back from burning it. You would be far far better to just burn you methanol/natural gas/butane etc that you started with in your fuel tank.

[fivebob]

A steam reforming unit in your car hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... hahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ever heard of a methanol reforming catalytic microreactor fabricated on a silicon wafer

[xsspeed]

http://ec.europa.eu/research/energy/pdf/efchp_fuelcell32.pdf

[xsspeed]

not familiar with this specific technology, however, agree that this would be the better way to achieve hydrogen production, rather than electrolysis of water, however as i have mentioned before the flux capacitor is far more efficient, particularly when equipped with the nuclear waste disposal unit.

[pc]

I think you missed the point.

...Nothing else comes close to the power requirements of a mass deployment and nothing else is as clean...

Nope didn't miss the point, just didn't consider it relevant to the discussion of hydrogen use in automotive systems. I think you may misunderstand the processes involved if you think it requires a 100% clean energy system to be viable.

How would you get your methanol?

Production of methanol form syngas, which is a mixture of H2,CO & CO2 is actually quite clean
You can use the CO & CO2 waste products from fossil fuel power production, the H2 and some of the CO & CO2 comes from steam reformation of methane. The steam is also a byproduct of power generation. Is that clean enough for you, or are you looking for the Nirvana of a 100% clean system?
Also note I said like methanol. There are other feedstocks you could use with a steam reformation unit to produce the hydrogen that might be "cleaner" than methanol

Looks to be a bit off topic here but molex seemed to writing from the point of view of the problems converting all transport to hydrogen based, and relating it to the reasons we would want to transfer away from the status-quo.
Assuming this, then a production method for hydrogen that involves the large scale use of fossil fuels or biofuels would create an end result not much different from the situation we are in today...

[fivebob]

Looks to be a bit off topic here but molex seemed to writing from the point of view of the problems converting all transport to hydrogen based, and relating it to the reasons we would want to transfer away from the status-quo.
Assuming this, then a production method for hydrogen that involves the large scale use of fossil fuels or biofuels would create an end result not much different from the situation we are in today...

I think his point was based on the false premise that you produce hydrogen from cracking water, which requires vastly more power than it produces.

The situation is not so much that we need to move away from fossil fuels in the immediate future, it's more that the fossil fuels that are readily available for petrol production are being held to ransom. There is a vast supply of methane available that would be suitable for conversion, either to methanol or directly to hydrogen.

At least if the hydrogen "engine" technology is developed, then at some point in the future when all the fossil fuels run out, or are too expensive to use, we would have the technology to run our transportation system. Even if the energy requirements to produce this fuel are higher than they are currently, the world would not grnid to a halt. Which is what it would do if we do nothing.

Sure using the energy directly would be more efficient, but solar cars are a long way off, battery technology is cumbersome and requires a charging method, which isn't much use to you if you run out of power and need to recharge in a hurry. What is needed is a portable fuel supply, and using Hydrogen as a fuel, and a portable reformation unit solves that problem.

[sergei]

I would say go electric + Nuke power plants.
Or bans cars all together and build a mega monster public transport (build before banning of course).

[neon_spork]

How is reforming hydrocarbon A to hydrogen and then burning it better then burning hydrocarbon A in the first place?? I fail to see the benefit of a portable reformer.

Also anyone who has anything to do with a actual steam reforming unit will realise that these things are feasable at 140 tonns per day hydrogen production with steam at 50bar and a reaction temperature of 800 C +, on a small scale heat loss is huge for such a high temperature process.

Aother downside which you have not considered, and probably quite a big one for those who are climate change adverse is that steam reforming produces two products... Hydrogen and CO2.

for example
CH4 + H20 > CO + 3H2
CH4H10+4H2O > 4CO + 9H2
CO + H2O > CO2 + H2

[HZRDIZ]

I would say go electric + Nuke power plants.
Or bans cars all together and build a mega monster public transport (build before banning of course).

Actually thats not an overly stupid idea. At least we'd all get to work on time.

[xsspeed]

equip cars with a soda stream = problem solved

seriously tho, there are obviously many +'s and -'s to every debate, i guess at the end of the day its gunna come down to which won has the better combination of:
a) cost
b) profit
c) green-ness (real or alleged)
d) safety
c) marketability (related to alleged green-ness as well)

+ probably others but its friday avo

[neon_spork]

Right at this moment it's not so much that fossil fuels which are readily available are being held to ransom as that there is actually a world shortage of refining capacity. Specially for diesel and jetfuel.

[xsspeed]

the whole canadian oil sands thing keeps being thrown around, obviously an issue refining this, but I believe technology for it is there? was wondering what the quality of this oil is, and what can be refined/distilled (forgotten term) from it, as in short chain - long chain HC's