Formula 1 2009

[GTTpower]

History in the making, I like it .
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76292

[2jayzgte]

See ya later FIA who needs you anyways..

I'm kinda glad as I actually don't want to see the sport diluted by silly salary cap type scenario's.What are the FIA going to do now they'll find some other way to F**K it up again for all these new teams.What a absolute joke this has turned out to be.

[Adamal]

History in the making, I like it .
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76292

Turbos, superchargers, 12 cylinders, 2000hp, rediculous wings, here we come!

[JustinSpiderholden]

So stoked

FOTA series FTW

F1 is dead, cheer's Max and Bernie

Who really wanted to watch F0.5

The new team would have been more pathitic than Force India

Yeah I can't wait to the see the FOTA's rules, bet you Ker's is gone

Hopefully, we will gain some new circuts and ditch the stupid desert GP's

This is so WinWinWIN

Who really wanted to see half ass new teams in F1

[Adamal]

Yeah I can't wait to the see the FOTA's rules, bet you Ker's is gone

Yea, to be honest, I've never really been a fan of KERS. It's the same sort of principle as NOS really. And they had a similar system in A1, which I never really liked. Shows more reliance on power than skill.

[thornz]

I cant decide wether to be excited or worried about the future, probably leaning more towards ecxited. Hopefuly the split doesnt destroy open wheel racing like the champcar/indycar split did.

Do you think the FOTA can get a series organised in time for next year? Will have to sort out all new contracts with tracks. Be interesting to see what happend to Monaco, teh supposed jewel in the crown of F1. What happens to all the tracks that have signed contracts with Bernie and the FIA, are there contarcts now null and void? I'm sure promoters will be pissed if they are stuck with a second rate series like F1 is going to become, no Ferrari, Mclaren, two of the biggest names in world motorsport.

[Makaveli]

A rival series by FOTA is doomed to fail. Teams can never agree on anything, they are always fighting against each other off the track. Just recently we had the double decker diffuser disagreement going through courts etc. Every team wants more money and power. You need a hardline "dictator-like" bastard to rule the FOTA teams from an independent body. FIA has done so successfully for the past 50 years. I personally believe FIA/FOTA cannot exist without each other both are destined for failure in their independent forms. FIA should have been more lenient with the teams and offer them slightly bigger slice of the cake from the TV Revenues etc. I am certain that FIA will struck a deal with FOTA.

I do want F1 to be pinnacle of the motorsport, but they seriously need to reduce costs. What we been having is like two or three rich teams and everyone else just backmarkers. I would like to see more competitive outfits and more overtaking, the only way to achieve that is to reduce the costs and make more teams compete on equal budgets.

[Zitchu]

The whole point of F1 though was to have no budget and get the best things you could posibly buy/develop, put em on the car and go racing.
The cap just completely defeats the purpose.

[fivebob]

A rival series by FOTA is doomed to fail. Teams can never agree on anything, they are always fighting against each other off the track.

I think you will find that if you look at the history of F1 the teams have been remarkably amicable, most of the fighting has been between the teams and FISA/FIA.

Just recently we had the double decker diffuser disagreement going through courts etc.

That was completely the fault of the FIA trying to stir things up to sow seeds of discontent in FOTA. If the FIA had bothered to clarify the legality of the diffusers before the season started, as they were asked to, then there would have been no need for the teams to protest.

Every team wants more money and power.

No, they want an even share of the revenue that they generate and control over the governance of the series. From what I can see none of them want more power and/or money that the rest of them. Do you have anything to back up this claim???

You need a hardline "dictator-like" b**tard to rule the FOTA teams from an independent body.

No that's pecisely what they don't need, and exactly why things are in the mess they are now

FIA has done so successfully for the past 50 years.

Do you know anything about the history of F1???

FIA/FISA have had so many attempts at destroying F1 by their meddling with the rules in the past 60 years that I've lost count. F1 was only really stable when FISA/FIA were put on a leash by the Concorde agreement and having to go through the F1 Commission to get rule changes approved.

I personally believe FIA/FOTA cannot exist without each other both are destined for failure in their independent forms.

They can exist quite happily without each other, well the FIA might lose a lot of it's prestige when their version of F1 fails but they will still continue on.

As for FOTA, it all depends on how much of a show they put on and how well organised they make the competition, they've been in the F1 a long time and they know what it takes to make it work. We're talkng about a multi-billion dollar business here and, IMHO, they have the drive and ability to run it very sucessfully.

FIA should have been more lenient with the teams

All the teams were really asking for was stability and even handed enforcement of the rules, not constant rule changes and arbitary stewards decisions. However Spanky couldn't keep from fiddling with the rules and costing the teams a fortune in the process, the cost of F1 isn't just the teams fault the FIA and FOM must bear a big part of the blame for that too.

and offer them slightly bigger slice of the cake from the TV Revenues etc.

That's not Spanky's dept, TV revenues are the Midget's concern and he's not about to let anyone get a hold of any more of "his" money

I am certain that FIA will struck a deal with FOTA.

Quite possible, that fat lady is only warming up, she hasn't even started to sing yet

I do want F1 to be pinnacle of the motorsport, but they seriously need to reduce costs.

As I said before F1 needs stable rules, without that the costs of redesigning a car every year is what makes it so expensive, that and a very restrictive rule set which doesn't allow for innovation.

There is also the argument that at the top level of motorsport, or indeed any sport, that if you can't afford to pay then you shouldn't be playing. Go down a notch and compete in GP2/F2/A1GP if you don't have the budget for F1.

What we been having is like two or three rich teams and everyone else just backmarkers.

I wouldn't call Brawn GP a rich team and Ferrari and McLaren's efforts this year have proven it's not all about how much you spend.

I would like to see more competitive outfits and more overtaking, the only way to achieve that is to reduce the costs and make more teams compete on equal budgets.

That's not a formula that will work, if you even things up there will be less overtaking not more. The biggest barrier to overtaking is the cars reliance on aerodynamic grip as opposed to mechanical grip, get rid of the aero that's stopping the cars following close and you will see a lot more overtaking.

Also if you allow a bit more innovation, like compound supercharging or active suspension, then you will see solutions that will (temporarily) give one team an advantage in one area , but another team might develop something in a totally different area that give them an advantage in different situations so you could well see several lead changes per lap as different parts of the track suits different cars.

[Makaveli]

This years Brawn GP car have been developed with a lot of financial input from Honda last year. They put all their time/money into developing the 2009 spec car while most other teams were still spending a lot of time improving their 2008 cars and battling for the title ie: Ferrari and McLaren. Think of it this way, Honda has a one year advantage in terms of development on most of the teams. I mean they have done F*ck all pre-season testing this year and they are absolutely dominating and I also believe they are sandbagging, there is still some speed hiding underneath. FIA has to play with the rules to spice the racing up, but the downside of that is the associated increase in costs. Why do you think FIA has introduced the slick tyres, narrow rear wings, wider front wings and removed majority of the aero pieces around the sidepods etc??? Precisely for mechanical grip, even though you are critising FIA. As for KERS, it was mainly for marketing to make the F1 appear more "eco-friendly". Testing is very limited this year, hence having a bigger budget doesn't help as much as it would in previous years. Like in previous years, Ferrari could be the last car on the grid and in two races time they will be battling for wins, but this is no longer possible. It takes a very long time to make progress. Data you obtain from the rigs/wind tunnels doesn't necessarily mean you will gain the same on the actual race track. But wind tunnel/rig testing is probably more expensive than track testing.

F1 teams don't get along. Those are just recent events. I am sure there were a lot more.
Ferrari VS McLaren Spy Saga (big event).
Ferrari VS Toyota Spy Saga (small event).

Ferrari are legally obliged to compete in next year's championship. I want to see them try to do their own thing.

[fivebob]

Think of it this way, Honda has a one year advantage in terms of development on most of the teams.

Precisely my point, it's not money on it's own that makes a car successful, it's development and if you keep changing the rules how can you develop a car to its full potential???

FIA has to play with the rules to spice the racing up, but the downside of that is the associated increase in costs.

No they don't. If they left the rules more open and in place for more than 12 months then car innovation and development would spice things up enough.

Why do you think FIA has introduced the slick tyres,

Because the teams have been asking them to do it since the introduction of grooved tyres 11 years ago and they finally had to listen

narrow rear wings, wider front wings and removed majority of the aero pieces around the sidepods etc???

As above, but IMHO too little too late.

If they'd actually listened to the teams aerodynamic experts, who have spent a lot of time finding out why the cars can't follow more closely, they might have made rules that work instead of rules that make the constructors search for tiny incremental gains in downforce at the expense of overtaking ability.

Precisely for mechanical grip, even though you are critising FIA.

I'm criticising they way the introduce rules(mostly without consultation), not necessarily the rules themselves. If you knew anything about the history of F1 you'd know that the best racing was when there were transparent rule changes governed by the Concorde agreement and presided over by the F1 Commission.

As for KERS, it was mainly for marketing to make the F1 appear more "eco-friendly". Testing is very limited this year, hence having a bigger budget doesn't help as much as it would in previous years.

Ever heard of CFD and wind tunnels??? If they don't test they run the computers and wind tunnels much harder and a much greater expense than testing. If they can't verify or eliminate some new development path in testing then they have to go down multiple paths to try and find the best performance, then they have to test during the race/practice this costs more money and takes longer to find the right answer. In previous years a team like Ferrari or McLaren would have taken only a few races to get back up to speed, but without testing they spend more money for poorer results. Makes a lot of sense .... NOT!!!

But wind tunnel/rig testing is probably more expensive than track testing.

Exactly. Where's the logic in that if, as the FIA is proclaiming, it's so important to reduce costs

F1 teams don't get along. Those are just recent events. I am sure there were a lot more.

There's far more examples of co-operation between teams than there are of any real fights. I can recall more intra-team fights than inter-team ones. In fact Enzo used to thrive on playing one dept of his team against another, probably why they had such a bad run for a lot of the time he was in charge.

Ferrari VS McLaren Spy Saga (big event).

Blown out of all proportion to its significance by Spanky's hatred of Ron Dennis

Ferrari VS Toyota Spy Saga (small event).

Swept under the carpet, but interestingly enough it actually resulted in real court appearances for the guilty parties, unlike the McLaren saga which only resulted in absurd rulings from the FIA kangaroo court

Oh and you forgot to mention the Benneton vs Ferrari spy saga, probably because you never even heard about it

All in all the examples you give are nothing but normal sporting rivalry between teams and a demonstration the spying on your rivals was an accepted practice. It fails to demonstrate any real animosity between the teams.

Ferrari are legally obliged to compete in next year's championship. I want to see them try to do their own thing.

That's for the lawyers to decide, if it ever get's that far. Max would be stupid to try and force any team to compete against their will. To fulfil their obligations (if the actually have any) all they have to do is field a low level car with a no talent driver for 1 lap per race, then pull it in and park it. More egg on Max's face and it doesn't stop them starting up a new company and competing in their own series... Team Enzo anyone

[Mr Revhead]

interesting....

now i guess we wait and see what will happen!
quite a lot of work to do to get a new series up and running....

from my understanding the FIA still has to ok circuits and safety etc...
cant see that going smoothly

[Makaveli]

FIA are not dumb enough to lose the top teams. It's all mind games, just part of the bargaining process. Before you know, there will be a new contract signed between FIA and FOTA. Establishing a new series requires a huge lump sum investment by the teams. Each of the eight teams can afford to spend a different amount. They need to organise the tracks, tv broadcasting, marketing, rules/regulations, and all other BS that goes behind the scenes. Ferrari is already involved in A1GP. I don't see the point in them starting a new series. F1 is a brand. It takes time to build a brand. FIA only needs to buy Ferrari, they have done so in the past, and everyone else will follow. I think back in 2003 or something, FOTA were planning to establish a rival series, but FIA offered Ferrari more tv revenue in return for their commitment to F1. Everyone is fighting for their slice of the cake.

[fivebob]

The FIA may not be dumb enough, but Spanky is egotistical enough to think he can get by without the big name teams.

I still think this is a bluff by FOTA to get rid of Spanky and the Midget, but probably one they are prepared to back up if necessary. I'm sure they've been planning it for a long time.

As for the organisation of a new series, that's the promoter's job, not FOTA's and if the rumour mill is correct they may already have a very good promoter lined up and a long list of ciruits to chose from. Don't forget that Monaco has said that they will go where Ferrari goes, F1 without both just isn't F1

As I said before F1 is a multi-billion dollar business, in fact FOM charges the circuits about a billion US$ just for the priviledge of running the races, add in the television rights and I'm sure there is plenty of money to get the job done without the teams having to dig too deep into their pockets.

[Mr Revhead]

yeah i think it can and maybe will happen

wasnt that long ago it nearly did (as mentioned above)
as bernie keeps pointing out there is more countries and tracks wanting a race than the allotted races..... so theres definitely the tracks and money out there to make it go ahead.

there is a plus to all this... TWO series for us to watch
because i would watch both (provided they are free to air now!)

[fivebob]

I can't help but see Ron Dennis's hand in all of this...

[Jdawg]

Well, Of course, Ron Dennis has screwed F1 for his own gain for years. Ironically enough he started out as a small team player before buying McLaren, exactly what they are sneering over the GP2 teams about.

What a lot of drama. I don't see how you guys think FOTA will get up and running and be popular with everybody in such a small space of time.
As the BBC mentioned last night, 20 odd million watching F1, 20,000 watching A1GP.
V8 Supercars is a good example of what can happen when manufacturers colude to get a successful race series. You get left with 2 dominant makes who modify the rules to suit the marketing of their street cars and screw anyone else. All because the Japanese and Euro cars started to become too competitive with models the "typical" aussie didn't like or understand. remember what Bathhurst was like before V8's. Mind you it has benefitted rallying.

F1 is about race teams, always has been. Ferrari started out making racecars. Now, because the teams are a bit short on cash they want to take ownership of F1.

If you look at it, all of the noisy FOTA players have been warned by their company boards about the excessive costs of their race teams. Mercedes have questioned whether to dump their interest in McLaren and just supply customer engines, as has Renault (and Renault's employees have openly questioned closing the racing operations completely to save jobs). Toyota and BMW have also both looked at the high costs of racing and if they should continue. FIAT are busy coming up with the cash to buy up the bankrupted Chrysler assets. For FOTA to be successful they need to do it big, but I can't see a payaback. The teams involved will probably stay in Europe which will reduce the exposure. It is all a bit huff and bluff I reckon. There is just too much on for the big Auto makers for them to put the necessary effort to making a go of their own series

[Leon]

There isn't enough money for two series.

One or both will die.

This is of course assuming that there isn't more back-pedalling than a reverse bicycle race. Which is quite likely to happen.

[posture flex]
[raaaaaah]
[ultimatum]
[bluff]
[backdown]
[negotiated truce]

is generally how such games are played out.

[Mr Revhead]

What a lot of drama. I don't see how you guys think FOTA will get up and running and be popular with everybody in such a small space of time.
As the BBC mentioned last night, 20 odd million watching F1, 20,000 watching A1GP.
V8 Supercars is a good example of what can happen when manufacturers colude to get a successful race series. You get left with 2 dominant makes who modify the rules to suit the marketing of their street cars and screw anyone else. All because the Japanese and Euro cars started to become too competitive with models the "typical" aussie didn't like or understand. remember what Bathhurst was like before V8's. Mind you it has benefitted rallying.

you are so wrong its not even funny!

ford and holden do not set the rules for V8s, never have.
aussie had to go their own way after the FIA dumped group A.
THAT and only that is the reason for the development of the V8s. none of that bullshit about banning the GTRs coz they were faster....


what may happen is "F1" will be f1 in name only, all the top teams and drivers will go to the FOTA series, where do you think the sponsors etc will go?

i see a few of the teams asking for new entries have now pulled their entries as they are not happy wiht the way the FIA has handled things, so the selection of replacment teams is looking pretty thin.
and also max is using this crisis as an excuxe for not standing down.... when hes the root of all that is wrong!

[Jdawg]

you are so wrong its not even funny!

ford and holden do not set the rules for V8s, never have.

Lol, really. So when Toyota asked to play and got told to go away by Ford/Holden because they had not put any money into the development of V8 supercars series, that wasn't making rules up.