98 vs E85 - is E85 viable?

[~SlideWays~]

I've read quite a bit about E85 becoming a popular fuel for Dyno tuners in Wellington with great results from E85.

But E85 appears to be almost twice the price of 98, harder to source and is much less efficient e.g. need more E85 to match 98 but E85 has more potential.

What I'm wondering is, how viable is it as a fuel? Taking into account my own club car which is an AE92 Trueno with engine setup run down below:

4AGZE Turbo
Smallport head
8.9:1 compression
510cc injectors (standard fuel pressure)
Walbro intank
T3/04e
Link Plus G1
Rev limit 7800, max power at around 7200.
Tuned on 98 by STM with 212fwkw on 17.6psi

The engine was not running out of flow at all, the tuner stopped there because it was running out of fueling.

On the road its plenty of power but on the race track with semi slicks it feels like it could handle more.

Now I'm wondering if I was to try for a few more psi to see what else it has in it (maybe 20kw more?). I'd need more fuel, so I'll need bigger injectors and/or higher pressure regulator.

If I'm doing that I'm wondering if I should consider E85. But at a guess it'll need ~50% more fuel to match 98. Plus E85 is much more expensive than 98 and harder to get.

Easiest option would be to stick with 98 but the benefits of E85 with better cooling is tempting.

I'm thinking 98 is my best bet since it is a road legal car, maybe if the price of E85 comes down it'll become more viable.



Anyone have thoughts/experience with E85 they could share?
Are people only using it on dedicated track cars?
Is the expense to convert to E85 worth it?
Are there other characteristics of E85 that are cons like maybe exhaust temps for spool etc?

[Mr Ree]

Until we have it at every fuel station so you can always ensure a constant supply, Im not going to consider taking the plunge.

On the other hand, If I had an ECU with a fuel flex sensor, then I wouldnt hesitate as there are simply too many benefits from running it in a stressed car, to turn it down.

In alot of places in the US, its a no brainer to run it over normal pump gas as it is soooooo cheap, but here, unfortunately, we will always pay a premium to buy it.

[BlakeNZ]

The e85 will need 35-40% more fuel flow than your car on 98.
Many track cars (in Australia at least) are running on it because of the cooling properties you mentioned.
You could upload a E85 tune for when you want to run it i guess.
A rough guide (after averaging out all the cars i've read about that i found 98 v E85 power figures) is expect a 13% power gain.

[2jayzgte]

I think as Blake alluded to have a map pre programmed for comp cars but I think for most of us 98 is still the way to go just because of supply.Also you have to get all your lines and what not changed out so I'm not really sure to be honest as 95% of us run our cars as road cars first with Track Drag or Drift as a hobby.

I'm still gutted they banned Avgas from clubsport events but it won't stop me running it my car though.

[strx7]

i'm hoping to run 30% E85 and 70% BP98 or Gull force10 on my next forced induction build.

[RedMist]

Why not just run RaceFuel E30?

[strx7]

availability & cost

[~SlideWays~]

i'm hoping to run 30% E85 and 70% BP98 or Gull force10 on my next forced induction build.

I guess an issue with that is variations in the mix, but you'd be able to tune it to allow for that.

Could almost be an option to run a meth injection set up for consistency?

[Lith]

I've read quite a bit about E85 becoming a popular fuel for Dyno tuners in Wellington with great results from E85.
Are there other characteristics of E85 that are cons like maybe exhaust temps for spool etc?

Engine temps can drop a bit too, one of the big reasons we chose to go E85 on an NA build I was involved with (where the gains aren't as impressive as with high boost turbo setups).

Power gains are pretty impressive, another car I've played with using an ethanol blend (30%) was an R32 GTSt running a relatively budget setup, stock engine, stock manifolds, $400 turbo, ~20psi. Made 245kw @ wheels on the previous (and aggressive) tune on normal pump gas, retuned to 295kw @ wheels on E30. E85 would no doubt have allowed a substantial (if not similar again) gain over the E30. Made full boost a few hundred rpm earlier too.... so not sure what to make of that vs the exhaust temp reduction.

You are a Wellingtonian eh? All going well we're going to be getting an S14 down here running with flexifuel in the next few weeks. Intention is to be able to use the car as a road car on normal 98, but do neat things like drive up to Manfeild and top up the tank with 20 litres of E85 - race for the day, drive back to Palmy and top the tank up, and drive home... no calculating fuel quantities, draining tanks, or any fun stuff like that, just pour E85 when you want more grunt etc.

[strx7]

i figure with 30% if i buy say 50-60 litres of E85 at a time, then put it 6 litres per 20 litre fuel container then full up the container with force 10 or BP98 that way i have enough E85 for 150-200 litres of fuel at a time.

[Lith]

A rough guide (after averaging out all the cars i've read about that i found 98 v E85 power figures) is expect a 13% power gain.

What cars etc have you seen that? On a decent boost turbo setup I'd have expected at least that... there are quite a few variables which come into it though. I tend to think of around 20%, or more depending on how hard you are keen to push it! Also, at full load it can go >40% more than petrol, depending on how you are going about things.

[Dunny]

I'm still gutted they banned Avgas from clubsport events but it won't stop me running it my car though.

That is old news and also not true. Avgas is fine to run in all vehicles for MSNZ events.

A remit was passed and Avgas was reinstated, ages ago.

[strx7]

That is old news and also not true. Avgas is fine to run in all vehicles for MSNZ events.

A remit was passed and Avgas was reinstated, ages ago.

actually it wasn't ages ago, avgas was out, but as there is currently no fully viable alternative for the pre historics that need leaded gas it is back in for the time being, it IS only a matter of time though and it will be back on the no no list.

[matt dunn]

Been at least 12 months since it was allowed back in again,
as we changed our series rules back last tiem to allow it and they up due again now so has been over a year.

Avgas will be around for quite some time as there are so many competitors that can't run unleaded or E blends.

[88.4ageGT]

we swaped the mini from avgas to e85 and got 25% more power and its only 2 30 a litre to buy

[4agtepwr]

E30 was brilliant in the AW11, the only reason we didn't go to E85 as I only had 1000 cc injectors and one 044 so would have run out of injector, We are going to try E85 in my wee starlet race car as an experiment with the new engine.You don't seem to see the same cooling benefits from e30 but you can safely make more power than avgas and its cheaper.

[strx7]

Been at least 12 months since it was allowed back in again,
as we changed our series rules back last tiem to allow it and they up due again now so has been over a year.

Avgas will be around for quite some time as there are so many competitors that can't run unleaded or E blends.

it was passed at the last AGCM which was last may.
I personally believe it will only be 5 years tops before it goes back on the no no list.

[gt4dude]

i want to run a separate fuel cell and fuel system in the future to run ethanol as a secondary fueling suppliment for high boost.

that way you dont have to wait till the tank is completely empty to switch fuels/maps and the car will run normally as a daily driver.

[Celica RA45]

on my na car i went from 100 octane with 13.5 to 1 and went up to 14.5 to 1tried e85 and also caltex eflex fuel which is e75 for easier starting on the eflex 32% more fuel on the e85 was 42 % more fuel the difference was 1.5 kws between them on dyno runs and a bit more through the mid range
my motor makes the best power with a 86 lambda on full throttle 440cc in board and 1000 cc out board injectors through a 910 bosch motor sport pump which is 130 litres per hr the 440 was 2 big and that can handle 200 litres per hr
last thing you guys need to know if its a race car run a couple of litres of hi octane through it or it will rust the bores ,there is heaps of water in this fuel and dont be alarmed with the water coming out of the exhaust or the water in the catch can
also another thing is i took out the trd thermostat and went back to a std 82 c 1

[saft]

E85 transformed my road/weekend toy.

Earlier spool, a lot more midrange, and more top end power.

Making over 400hp/l on it.