98 vs E85 - is E85 viable?

[Lith]

my motor makes the best power with a 86 lambda on full throttle

Some very practical info you have given there What Lambda range did you try before you settled at .86?

[Celica RA45]

we tried 88 lambda 1st as this is where the 13.5 to 1 was on 100 octance at wot and kept going down to 80 then up 1 lambda at a time
im still using vvti on my 14.65mm lift cams which makes it a bit hard ,but i also do individual cyl trimming as well

[Flannelman]

Car Craft in america used a supercharged 355ci chev v8 and made 601hp @5600 and 614lb/ft @ 3200 on 12 psi and 10:1 comp ratio.

They ran for best power 7.4:1 fuel ratio, a safe ignition timing set at 32 degrees total advance by 3400rpm.

One BIG thing that was discovered is that E85 is prone to pre ignition. On previous work done on there N/A build they were close to destroying an engine from it! The cause was that the spark plugs were getting too hot and acting like glow plugs igniting the fuel before it was ment to. Because of this, the spark plugs must be at least 3 heat ranges colder than on gasoline. For easyer starting when cold, the gap was closed to .03inch and the ignition upgraded to MSD unit.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... ewall.html For those who like reading

http://www.e85performance.net/forums/in ... 03633a986d A site like this dedicated to E85

[RedMist]

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... ewall.html For those who like reading

Is it just me or does the conclusions seem totally abstract?

In no instance do they compare fuels in the same configuration of engine.

Bump compression, raise boost and don't expect a higher propensity for pre-ignition? I wouldn't expect a higher propensity to detonate in a higher octane fuel.

I run 1 step colder plug in my boosted NA engine. I found the recommendation from those in the states running boost (not as much as I) through the VQ on pump gas. I've run the same series of plugs in Avgas and E30 with not a hint of detonation with either fuel.

My logs show a decrease in ECT shifting from avgas to E30. My plugs look the same between both fuels (bar the coating of lead in avgas). E30 looks to generate some power gain (460whp 7psi E30, 519whp 15psi avgas) however we decreased boost as such it's hard to make any conclusion.

I'll continue to run E30 over avgas for the folling reasons.

My heads (expecially the exhaust ports) are considerably cleaner. The TEL pills in the exhaust. Avgas contains over 200 times the lead that leaded fuels contained!
The car runs cooler.
We are developing about the same if not more power than Avgas.
On the emotive the car sounds wetter, less tinny and prone to detonation. (if you've listened to enough cars you know what I mean). Unfortunately we don't log knock as the crystals are triggered by rock hitting either the block or the bash pans.

[Lith]

I run 1 step colder plug in my boosted NA engine. I found the recommendation from those in the states running boost (not as much as I) through the VQ on pump gas. I've run the same series of plugs in Avgas and E30 with not a hint of detonation with either fuel.

You wouldn't be concerned with "typical" post-spark detonation, its pre-ignition which E85 is meant to be a bit vulnerable to if there is a reasonable excuse to pre-ignite. Given the motors we'd be considering using E85 on are COMPLETELY different beasts to the dinosaur motors which hotspots are a thing you actually have to think about, I feel for the most part so long as the tune is right there shouldn't be too much problem.

E85 is used VERY widely now, and it'd not be half as popular if every other car that used it melted its pistons etc.

[diss7]

Sorry to drag up an old topic, but I have some related questions and didn't want to start a new thread when its similar.

My questions/discussion is more related to Avgas v E30 v E85, but specifically in Christchurch. This is important as we do not have E85 on pump here (as far as I am aware)

I think it is fairly well established that E30 is comparable (performance wise) to Avgas, and E85 is superior. However, is the extra performance worth it when comparing availability and cost?

Avgas can be sourced easily (assuming you have a race licence) from Garden City Helicopters. (At least it used to be, have not checked this is still the case) Even without a race licence, Challenge Waimak have it, but will not allow it pumped into a car, regardless of whether you show a race licence. They will allow it pumped into a vehicle on a trailer though. Once I pulled up and just filled up two containers, and proceeded to empty said containers straight into car.
The gas station at Prebbleton never used to care (this may have changed) and let me pump it straight in. They're only 5 mins from Ruapuna.
Rakaia had a service service station that is/was the same.

Compare that to E30/E85, which is not on pump anywhere near Christchurch.

Cost.
Just rang Challenge Waimak, and Av Gas there is $3.10/L.
Alcotane price list shows
E30 @ $74/20L= $3.70/L, or $540/200L = $2.70/L.
E85 @ $80/20L= $4.00/L, or $600/200L = $3.00/L

Buying by the 200L is the obvious way to go. But, are people pumping this themselves at home? What is the shelf life on 200L?

But, you can't just consider the cost/L as the ethanol blends use significantly more fuel (30-50% more) which when factored onto the /L cost, make the ethanol blends significantly more expensive to run.

Added to the cost of running ethanol, is the required upgrades to the fuel system in order to achieve the required increase in flow.

One further thought, is it conceivable to purchase E100 @ $650/200L, and mix with pump gas at calculated ratio to effectively achieve E30 for a better /L price? Another positive to doing this, would be being able to keep a fuel container in the car of E100, and when fueling up at the pump add 10L of the E100.

Interested what conclusions others have drawn, particularly those based in/around Christchurch.

[diss7]

Some comparison information HERE

[matt dunn]

My car has about 50hp between avgas and E30,
have not tried E85.

Price wise in CHCH go and see NZEFI as I am sure they stock and sell it,
last time I was talking to them about it they had a customer who was going to run a road car on it so they thought they would always have a big drum on hand and could sell per litre from it,
and that way the price was not that far from Avgas.

definatley worth going to see them about anyway.

[diss7]

Thanks. I planned on talking to them about it - they're going to do the tune on the beams. Just wanted some prior knowledge.

*Edit. Matt - I'm assuming you are saying that you had 50hp more on E30, than avgas?

[Lith]

cost/L as the ethanol blends use significantly more fuel (30-50% more) which when factored onto the /L cost, make the ethanol blends significantly more expensive to run.

E30 doesn't need that kind of extra fuel, it is actually a pretty reasonable balance. The gains going to E30 are quite significant too

[Celica RA45]

beams with 13.5 to 1 pistons can use 98 octane fuel but you need to use ngk plugs in the 8 cold range and going to e30 or e85 is not worth it untill you get up to 14.5 to 1 on a na motor putting ign more timming wont help
played around with a lot of different fuels .plus you need to make sure the fuel you get is e85 and the same all of the time or you can blow your motor ,hence my decision to use the caltex eflex over the united e85 as the caltex is the same all the year through and the united is all over the place .i test it at the servo now

[matt dunn]

beams with 13.5 to 1 pistons can use 98 octane fuel but you need to use ngk plugs in the 8 cold range and going to e30 or e85 is not worth it untill you get up to 14.5 to 1 on a na motor putting ign more timming wont help
played around with a lot of different fuels .plus you need to make sure the fuel you get is e85 and the same all of the time or you can blow your motor ,hence my decision to use the caltex eflex over the united e85 as the caltex is the same all the year through and the united is all over the place .i test it at the servo now

NZ is the opposite,

E85 that you buy is more likely to be E85,
than 98 bought from BP is likely to be 98.

I would never run 98 due to the inconsistant quality and supply issues.
You have E85 at the pump in Aussie? not here, only one in hamilton i think,
so most of the E85 supplied comes from the same place and they are a proper race fuel company so it's fine.

Quite a few rally guys had issues with 98 a while ago,
I know two of them, there was about 8 cars blew engines in one rally that were all on 98,
so one paid the money and sent it to be tested and it was no where near what it should have been.

[pc]

There seem to be a lot of references to "more power from e85" in this thread. I thought ethanol had less "power" but gives resistance to detonation, hence allows for greater compression ratios, higher boost, and more advanced timing. Surely you can only get more power from e85 if tuned for it, or if the ecu knows about the fuel change and adjusts timing/boost to suit?

[Celica RA45]

on my race engine either 13.5 to 1 or 14.5 to 1 ign timming is very similar .1 is not better than the other same timming 1 motor like 88 lambda and the 14.5 to 1 likes 86 lambda but i still end up with the same ign timming on both motors same cams same head only difference is the comp

[diss7]

There seem to be a lot of references to "more power from e85" in this thread. I thought ethanol had less "power" but gives resistance to detonation, hence allows for greater compression ratios, higher boost, and more advanced timing. Surely you can only get more power from e85 if tuned for it, or if the ecu knows about the fuel change and adjusts timing/boost to suit?

Being correctly tuned for the correct fuel is a given. I don't think anyone is talking or considering only just putting a different fuel in and nothing else.

[matt dunn]

Being correctly tuned for the correct fuel is a given. I don't think anyone is talking or considering only just putting a different fuel in and nothing else.

if you put E85 in instead of 98 or avgas and dont tune anything,
the car will self destruct pretty quick,
so that is not an option.

[diss7]

Being correctly tuned for the correct fuel is a given. I don't think anyone is talking or considering only just putting a different fuel in and nothing else.

if you put E85 in instead of 98 or avgas and dont tune anything,
the car will self destruct pretty quick,
so that is not an option.

Yes sorry, that's what I was trying to get across. Retuning for whichever fuel was a given so no reason to mention it.

[DRFTIN]

i got good gains from e30, but found it a pain in the ass to have to buy 200l at a time, store the drum somewhere and pump it out
maybe im just lazy but will go back to 98 next tune just because i can drive to bp and fill up

[pc]

Yes sorry, that's what I was trying to get across. Retuning for whichever fuel was a given so no reason to mention it.

Fair enough... just though being a public forum with joe blow ignorant also watching, it was time for Captain Obvious to make an appearance

[Alcotane]

Hi Guys,

I wish I had found my way to this a little earlier, then maybe this post wouldn't be so long.....

Anyone have thoughts/experience with E85 they could share?

I have been almost solely focussed on ethanol fuels for about 5 years now so if you have any specific questions feel free to ask, even if I don't know it off the top of my head I can quite easily hit the lab and test it out.

Are people only using it on dedicated track cars?

The majority of our customers are using E85 exclusively on the track and although I have heard that an ammendment is being drafted I believe that E85 use on the road is still technically illegal. See Engine Fuel Specification Regulations http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2011/0352/latest/DLM4044783.html?search=ts_act%40bill%40regulation%40deemedreg_Engine+Fuel+Specifications+Regulations_resel_25_h&p=1

Is the expense to convert to E85 worth it?

Despite the low compression, the level of boost that you are running would lead to some fairly reasonable cylinder pressures, meaning 98 would probably limit the amount of timing advance. There may be room for an above average power increase for your application if you want to push for it. You will also benefit from reduced lag and operating temps. May just be worth the effort of uploading different maps and draining the tank once in a while.

Also, if you're in Wellytown you can get the stuff direct from us as you need it with no worries about freight costs or storage. The cost vs benefit argument is really relative to personal aspirations and resources.

Are there other characteristics of E85 that are cons like maybe exhaust temps for spool etc?

The most prevalent issues with E85 are the increase in consumption, cold starting, the potential for water contamination and incompatibility with certain elastomer's (rubber or plastic like bits). Most of the other problems are rectified through the addition of chemical additives. Overall ethanol really is an amazing fuel, we just need the supply and demand to increase thus decreasing the cost and petrol will be left for dead.

i'm hoping to run 30% E85 and 70% BP98 or Gull force10 on my next forced induction build.

Can I recommend that you use E100 rather than E85 and BP98 or 95 rather than Force 10. Doing so will enable you to get a more consistent fuel as Force 10 is "up to 10% ethanol" and some E85 products can vary as much as 20%.

We have fuel grade E100 available that has been treated with all the special corrosion and lubricity additives and you can simply mix this in at the concentration you want. Or as RedMist suggested simply buy E30.

What is the shelf life on 200L?

All Alcotane products have a rated storage life of 6 months if stored correctly and we blend all product to order, ensuring that is not reduced by batch blended product waiting for dispatch. Despite this I know of people who have used fuel that is older than 6 months without issue and have tested fuel more than 12 months old with good (not perfect) results.

The issues with extended storage tend to be gum, and water contamination.

Gum forms through the oxidation of certain hydrocarbons that are part of the petrol component, it is insoluble in petrol and usually falls to the bottom of the tank/drum. However it is soluble in ethanol and as such it remains suspended in the fuel and can collect over time in fuel filters.

Water contamination usually comes from atmospheric water that can be absorbed by the ethanol component of the fuel.

is it conceivable to purchase E100 @ $650/200L, and mix with pump gas at calculated ratio to effectively achieve E30 for a better /L price?

We provide more E100 to the south island than any other part of the country and it is my understanding that many people are using this to blend with 95 to increase the octane due to the poor availability of 98 in the south.

As far as blending 30% you just need to do the math,
E30 = 2.7/L

70% 95 @ say 2.28/L = 1.596
30% E100 @ 3.25/L = 0.975

1.596 + 0.975 = $2.57

the variance there is basically our manufacturing costs as E30 ties up manufacturing for longer and each drum is subject to more testing and reporting than E100.

One thing I would like to know from all of you who are willing is how much you would all support Alcotane products on the pump at locations around the country. It is something we are looking at doing over the next 6 months and it is always good to get some feedback.

Product would be made available at normal retail price so you would save on freight costs and clubs, teams and groups can be issued with discount/reward cards to provide benefits for those who support it.

I have thrown together a survey for you guys that will help me identify if/when/where we go ahead with this and what products we would make available. If you are keen here is the link http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q7JBBPN. all questions are optional.