3SGE flavours - and removal / installation advice

[Bling]

I've been browsing around for info, but most of the time the information relates to 3sgte engines.

The situation, I have a 3sge from a rav4. I want to know what differences I may encounter with 3sges from other cars. Celica look to be the closest as far as setup goes with the 4wd etc. It's looking like a lost cause, so i'm seeing what replacement options will jam in it's place.

Are 3sge blocks/heads of the same generation going to be the same across the different cars?

Just trying to see what possible options I have in the swapping bits around. There might be none. But rather than spend more hours googling, can anyone give me some info on what is / isn't swappable. I'm using s 93' 3sge manual which covers celica/mr2 and most of it matches up so far. the likes of intake setup is easy enough to reuse from what I already have.

Any help appreciated!

I don't want to use the head/block that I have now due to lack of servicing. Until I get it completely apart I won't know for sure what's up. But i'm guessing total loss of head/block.

[Dell'Orto]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-par ... 419730.htm

Just sayin'

[Bling]

Lol stop sayin', as every time you do I consider it more of a viable option

[DeeCee]

from what i found with version #3 engines in st20x variants, there were no headflow differences from what I have read, differences were

- cams were more agressive in NA vs turbo
- lower compression pistons in turbo
- injectors were greater in turbo
- some bosses were drilled and tapped, others weren't
- turbo 2 piece oil pan had been tapped for turbo oil feed
- head had mounting point for centre feed and na didn't = head design slightly different)
- rocker cover was different design
- water pipe is different between turbo and non-turbo
- inlet and exhaust manifolds

almost same gaskets (main difference is the rocker cover gasket), heads are transferable between engines, blocks are the same, same gearbox mount, waterpump and oil pump are the same

Not sure what differences are between gen 2 turbo and NA, but I do know that the cams and injectors are different at a minimum.

engine differences between models I haven't explored or found on my internet travels that comes to mind.

But for some reason, I was looking at a 3VZ used in AWD layout

Toyota EPC would give you an indication with what is shared and what isn't.

[Bling]

Thanks for taking the time to write all that up! Sounds promising if I can't find parts from the exact same chassis / setup. Between mr2 and celica I haven't spotted a huge amount of difference in the parts i've removed so far. Using 3sge pdf to compare them as I work on the engine. So I imagine they are all pretty similar, just checking there isn't something obvious that i'm missing. cheers

[gt4dude]

rav4 3sge should be a drop in replacement to a celica 3sge, factory output a bit lower due to ecu tune, and maybe some extra or missing ancilleries

its nothing like the mr2 engines where everythings backwards like the alternator , shifter cables, water outlets, wiring harness.

the thing with an mr2 engine as a replacement is you'll need alot of parts from your old fwd 3sge (blown motor i'm assuming) to get it to work.

otherwise, completely stripped, the bare blocks and heads should be mostly the same, either way you can make it work.

[gt4dude]

also, for gen 4 , the rav 4 "grey top" is functionally equiv to a celica beams red top, once again with a little less output.

3sge will mate to an e154f

mz and vz motors are goers too it may be quite possible to get the 2gr in there too,

careful with the bigger ones though, >3L, may be too tall to fit under the bonnet

[Bling]

Cheers for the info. Simplest solution is what i'm after at this stage as tempting as 3sgte, mz, vz etc are, I just don't think it's the right car to be investing must effort into.

Just got off phone with a wrecker (seemed like a GC too). 2WD and 4WD rav motors can't be swapped due to a casting on the block it seems. He has no 4WD ones So that leaves me one option which is buy a 2WD one and swap everything to my current block if it's in ok condition. Or just buy a head which are the same. $600 for whole 2WD engine, $350 for a head. Will try get the head off this weekend and see what's what. Thought the price for the whole motor was pretty good. He was saying they have been sitting unwanted for 18 months which helps the price I guess

So continuing with the tech side of this.

If bearings are stuffed, will that likely mean crank needs work? What else will be stuffed? Will the block still be sweet to reuse if I throw away the crank / other parts and swap in good bits?

[Shrike]

Cheers for the info. Simplest solution is what i'm after at this stage as tempting as 3sgte, mz, vz etc are, I just don't think it's the right car to be investing must effort into.

Just got off phone with a wrecker (seemed like a GC too). 2WD and 4WD rav motors can't be swapped due to a casting on the block it seems. He has no 4WD ones So that leaves me one option which is buy a 2WD one and swap everything to my current block if it's in ok condition. Or just buy a head which are the same. $600 for whole 2WD engine, $350 for a head. Will try get the head off this weekend and see what's what. Thought the price for the whole motor was pretty good. He was saying they have been sitting unwanted for 18 months which helps the price I guess

So continuing with the tech side of this.

If bearings are stuffed, will that likely mean crank needs work? What else will be stuffed? Will the block still be sweet to reuse if I throw away the crank / other parts and swap in good bits?

the casting on the block can be removed from memory but I would need to see pics of the blocks again to confirm think its due to the transder cause fowling

[Grrrrrrr!]

If bearings are stuffed, will that likely mean crank needs work? What else will be stuffed?
Will the block still be sweet to reuse if I throw away the crank / other parts and swap in good bits?

1) Highly Likely
2) You'll have to take a look once its apart
3) Unless the bores are scored, probably. A rebore will take care of scored bores.


Now, these $600 engine.. they would be gen3+ blocks with the two piece sump and better oil pump?

[Dell'Orto]

Being a Rav I would assume so...they arent old enough to get Gen 2 motors.
It depends how bad the bearings are...if its a full blown KNOCKKNOCKKNOCK then there will be bits of bearing material everywhere, which would entail a full strip down and rebuild...not worthwhile.
If its only a slight tap, you might be ok with dropping the crank and having the journals polished, or maybe ground to the next undersize.
In your instance I'd just buy the $600 motor and swap it over. From memory both Adydas and Anth_555 used 3SGE blocks in their GT Fours, and while it fouls slightly on the transfer case, you can grind it to clear no problems.

/3SGTE swap

[Bling]

He didn't seem to think they would fit. I don't imagine chopping off bits would be considered normal though. I assume if the 2WD engine won't just bolt in, that it's the one with the extra bit. I'm not against chopping

I'm not sure what spec the motors are tbh, 94-00 are the years for the shape I have. So which gen would that make them?

Thanks for the confirmation that it's doable. My main goal here is a comfy cheap daily which I can obviously fly my rainbow flag from 3SGTE is very tempting, I just don't know how well the rest of the setup would take it. Hard to nail down what the gearbox and drive train can handle from reading. It would also blow my "cheap and cheerful" budget out the window.

Oh and as for how bad the knock is, i'll probably never know. It's not been serviced at all. So with the belt snapping, mechanic seemed to think it pointed to seized cam which caused the crank to rip the teeth off the belt. I've never had it started and in its current state I don't think it's possible. Will aim to strip the head off this weekend though. But from just looking at the head, it's not good!

$600 is a fair price for a 3sge? I thought that was a pretty good deal. Possibly only with 115k on the clock too

[1I1]

Now, these $600 engine.. they would be gen3+ blocks with the two piece sump and better oil pump?

They run a two-piece sump + gen3 oil pump

[Dell'Orto]

$600 is pretty cheap from a wrecker, they'll warranty it too.
I would imagine that a 4WD Rav would have an E series box, same as Celica so would be reasonably tough. Ratios would likely be wrong for a 3SGTE though.
Take the top cam cover off, and try turning a cam to see if its seized or not.

[Bling]

They don't turn mechanic popped over to try work out what I was looking at. He said he's seen worse..... but that it's bad. I have a pic somewhere, but just imagine a head full of tar. Cams barely move with a fair bit of force on them. So he said something has likely seized up top causing the failure. Also seemed to think that although non-interference, valves may also be bent. Find out in a couple days I guess. Also while digging tar chunks out of the head bolt holes I started to find glitter. Which I don't imagine is a good sign!

[RomanV]

The early 3S blocks have a full set of engine mounts on the sides, to suit a front engined RWD setup... despite never coming in any cars which had this!

The problem being that these mounting points interfere with the 4wd transfer case, so they are shaved down two of the mounting points on the intake side ofthe block from factory or not on the casting. Either or.

It's the two holes towards the rear of the block which are removed.

So I cant see a problem with getting trigger happy with a grinder or something to 'clearance' the block so long as you didnt leave any gouges or whatever which would be a stress point on the block.

Although, if it's a gen 3 engine I wouldnt be surprised if these mounting holes werent there anyway, because they're missing on all of the gen 4 (non altezza) engines by default.

[Bling]

So what hits are the mounting points that don't actually contribute to the strength of the block, but rather just stick out from the block?

Trying to browse on toyodiy but it doesn't separate 2wd and 4wd models

[DeeCee]

you mean these mounting points? Gouged the transfer case a bit trying to get past them. As you can see, grabbed the angle grinder, shaved one off slightly and the gearbox went on neatly

[Bling]

Exactly what I wanted to see!!


Ok so skip a few steps. For the Celica fans out there, how hard is it to drop the engine / trans / front suspension out? I'm currently removing the old engine piece by piece, and it's a nightmare.

I was told (and it's pretty obvious) that there is no way the engine will come out in one piece if everything is left in place. There is 5-10mm clearance from the pulleys to the strut tower, so nowhere near enough room to remove it in place from the gearbox.

Mechanic mentioned clock spring being something to watch for. Something about the steering being turned too far and it breaks the spring. My theory was to literally weld up some brackets to bolt to the wheel studs. I'd then bolt them in location so they can't move. I'd also lock the steering wheel in place. Might even be possible to leave steering rack in car and avoid the whole problem?

I don't need a full guide on how to do it, but what are some tips and things I need to be careful of?

Am I on the right track or completely lost?


TIA

[Lloyd]

Take the key out... steering locked