2JZ GE Ignition Problem

[DLF]

I have an intermittent fault with my JZA80 Supra that running a 2JZ GE with the factory igniter, coil and distributor.

It started missing occasionally over two days, but then on the Saturday when I was taking it for a drive it just stalled suddenly and wouldn't start again at all. It stalled when I was changing gear as the revs dropped away.

To try and diagnose what’s causing it I have done the following:

Checked the codes and found '43' which is no starter signal to the ECU. Not sure if this is a problem as I hadn't tried to start the car yet...

Could hear the fuel pump working and fuel flowing when ignition on.

Removed the spark lead from no. 1 cylinder and checked for any spark to ground. None found.

Removed lead from coil to distributor, checked for any spark to ground. None found.

Checked for 12V across the pins on the connector coming into the coil from the igniter. 12V is present when cranking the engine and when the ignition is on.

To me this pointed towards the coil being dead i.e 12V in but nothing coming out, so I replaced the coil yesterday.

First time after changing the coil engined started as per normal. I let it warm up and it was ok. I then shut the car off, moved my tools so I could go for a test drive and started the car again. It ran for a minute and then stalled while at idle. Tried starting it again and it just cranked and didn't start.

Today, tried starting the car again to see if it's heat related. It started fine, and ran until warm and just kept going. I tried stopping and starting the engine a number of times but it started fine every time. But then I revved it to around 2800 rpm and took my foot off the accelerator (like I was changing gear when it died completely the first time), the revs dropped to idle and immediately the car stalled. Tried to start it again and it just cranks. I have checked if there is 12V into the coil and its there, and I checked if there was any spark coming out of the coil when cranking and there's none.

I now think that this could be the igniter playing up, in that its closing the circuit to give 12V to the coil continuously but its not then opening the circuit to get the coil to discharge.

Any advice/help would be appreciated. Sorry for the massive post but the I figured the more info, the better.

Cheers
Dean

[92mr2paddy]

does your ge use the same ignitor as the gte?

i got one for sale if its the same thing might be worth a shot?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =622417946

[Crucible]

Sounds like your testing is on track, run a test light on neg side of coil to ground, it should pulse when cranking.

If the test light stays lit (solid) the igniter is at fault and not switching.

[DLF]

does your ge use the same ignitor as the gte?

i got one for sale if its the same thing might be worth a shot?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =622417946

I had a look at the photo on your listing and the ge one is different. It has a 4 pin connector only.

Thanks for the offer though.

[matt dunn]

Toyota external igniters are usually very reliable,
but must be bolted on correctly as the body is the earth.

My guess would be more towards the sensor in the dist.
How many wires from the dist?

The start signal fault code appears when you crash start a manual car,
and randomly a times but should not really pose an issue.

[strx7]

4 pin dizzy same guts as 1VZ/2VZ/3VZFE & 3rd gen 3SGE etc. They do die with age.

[DLF]

Sounds like your testing is on track, run a test light on neg side of coil to ground, it should pulse when cranking.

If the test light stays lit (solid) the igniter is at fault and not switching.

Thanks, I'll give this a go tomorrow.

Toyota external igniters are usually very reliable,
but must be bolted on correctly as the body is the earth.

My guess would be more towards the sensor in the dist.
How many wires from the dist?

The start signal fault code appears when you crash start a manual car,
and randomly a times but should not really pose an issue.

Thanks. I haven't unbolted the igniter since the problem started so it should still be all good .

As strx7 said, 4 pin connector on the dist. I'll do the test that Crucible suggested and see what happens. If the test light pulses then the dist will be the thing I tackle next.

With the fault code, now that you mention it I remember on one of the times it missed while I was driving the engine check light came on for a second before it restarted. Because it restarted while the car was rolling, to me this would be same as if you crash started it, so I think that's what caused the fault code.

Thanks again for the replies.

[Crucible]

I should mention that the ignitor needs a signal from dist to switch. So if the test light doesnt pulse the ignitor OR dist can be at fault.

Sounds like the distributor is more likely to be the fault from other peoples experiances.

[DLF]

I should mention that the ignitor needs a signal from dist to switch. So if the test light doesnt pulse the ignitor OR dist can be at fault.

Sounds like the distributor is more likely to be the fault from other peoples experiances.

OK. I put a test light on the negative side on the coil to ground. When I cranked the engine the light didn't turn on at all.

So does this change anything, i.e it still could be the dist or the igniter?

[matt dunn]

I would check you have power to the +ve side of the coil as that just doesn't seem right.


Have you checked fuses under bonnet and under dash?

[Crucible]

Have you checked the test lamp earth by touching batt + first?

[DLF]

I checked for 12V on the +ve side of the coil and its there (got 12V on the meter and the test light lit up when grounded)

Was doing more research on the Net and have literally just come across this:

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf (see page 5, ESA Ignition System Operation)

The short version is if the ECU fails to see any signals from the dist, it won't send the trigger signal to the igniter, which stops the igniter from operating.

I'll try and see if there is any signal going from the dist to the ECU through the 4 pin connector on the dist. I managed to find a circuit diagram for the GE ignition as well so I should be able to tell which wires I need to measure.

I'll post something up here about how I go.

[matt dunn]

the thing is though,

if there is no signal from the ecu to the igniter,
the coil negative should stay at 12v not 0v.

0v indicates that power is not coming out of the coil,
or that the igniter is holding it to ground which is very uncommon.

Can you unplug the igniter without unplugging the coil?
do that and you should have 12v on both coil terminals.

[sergei]

One thing to note is that you cannot measure the signal coming out of the CAS with $5 Multimeter with any certainty. The signal is very low. The ECU on other hand will send a clear signal to the igniter, so you can measure that with a multimeter (do not measure it with test light!).

[DLF]

the thing is though,

if there is no signal from the ecu to the igniter,
the coil negative should stay at 12v not 0v.

0v indicates that power is not coming out of the coil,
or that the igniter is holding it to ground which is very uncommon.

Can you unplug the igniter without unplugging the coil?
do that and you should have 12v on both coil terminals.

Sorry Matt, ignore what I said above about getting 0v across the coil, I told you the wrong thing.
I actually tested between the negative terminal in the 2 pin connector and ground, not the coil negative and ground (misunderstood what you wanted me to check). The negative wire in the connector leads back to the igniter, so there was 0v between this and ground.

But, when I replaced the coil on the weekend I did check the voltage across the primary and there was a constant 12v across the coil terminals.

One thing to note is that you cannot measure the signal coming out of the CAS with $5 Multimeter with any certainty. The signal is very low. The ECU on other hand will send a clear signal to the igniter, so you can measure that with a multimeter (do not measure it with test light!)

I pulled the connector off the igniter and put an analogue meter on the IGt wire (trigger wire from ECU to the igniter). Then cranked the engine for 3 seconds twice and had no pulses showing on the meter. On the third try, I saw pulses of around 2v on the analogue meter. I tried it again a couple of times more and again got nothing on the meter.

So that looks like its the distributor?

[matt dunn]

I pulled the connector off the igniter and put an analogue meter on the IGt wire (trigger wire from ECU to the igniter). Then cranked the engine for 3 seconds twice and had no pulses showing on the meter. On the third try, I saw pulses of around 2v on the analogue meter. I tried it again a couple of times more and again got nothing on the meter.

So that looks like its the distributor?

Not so,


The ECU will only send out 4 pulses, (maybe 6 on a 6 cylinder) on the IGT wire without getting the IGF signal before it stops sending the IGT signal,

so testing it disconnected is a waste of time.

[DLF]

I pulled the connector off the igniter and put an analogue meter on the IGt wire (trigger wire from ECU to the igniter). Then cranked the engine for 3 seconds twice and had no pulses showing on the meter. On the third try, I saw pulses of around 2v on the analogue meter. I tried it again a couple of times more and again got nothing on the meter.

So that looks like its the distributor?

Not so,


The ECU will only send out 4 pulses, (maybe 6 on a 6 cylinder) on the IGT wire without getting the IGF signal before it stops sending the IGT signal,

so testing it disconnected is a waste of time.

So for clarity, if the dist was working properly and the igniter was disconnected, it would send a number of pulses every time the engine was cranked?

[Lloyd]

Just to go back to something a little bit more simple... are the spark plugs wet or not?

If the ECU isn't getting NE/G signals then you're not going to get injectors firing. If you have a faulty distributor then they should be dry. If the ignitor is faulty then there should still be a fuel injections signal sent so the plugs should be wet.

May or may not help, worth a quick check though.

[matt dunn]

So for clarity, if the dist was working properly and the igniter was disconnected, it would send a number of pulses every time the engine was cranked?

No it would send a number of pulses then no more until the key is switched off and back on again, then you will get another lot of pulses.

Looking back through my info it may be more than the 4 or 6,
but it will only pulse for a short time each key cycle.

[strx7]

if you check the pins on the dizzy, from pins 1 & 2 of them you will get 24 pulses per revolution, and 2 pulses from pins 1 & 4 (from memory) or it could be 1 & 3.