Man-maths moment [97 MR2 turbo swap]

[rollaholic]

stalled due to laziness is one thing, stalled due to lack of solutions to unexpected problems / running out of funds can affect cars that are in workshops as much as cars that are in peoples backyards

[BlakeNZ]

i could be wrong, but you car is worth $3000 for a quick sale, $3500-4000 for a normal sale. You CAN afford the blue V6. you owe it yourself to at least test drive it.

[Scrunty]

stalled due to laziness is one thing, stalled due to lack of solutions to unexpected problems / running out of funds can affect cars that are in workshops as much as cars that are in peoples backyards

Understood, thanks again for the seasoned advice.
I'm fairly sure if I had not posted up here and had let my mind stew for too long I just would have plunged on in and gone ahead with the whole lot.. and cost myself a shitton of money/trouble.

i could be wrong, but you car is worth $3000 for a quick sale, $3500-4000 for a normal sale. You CAN afford the blue V6. you owe it yourself to at least test drive it.

I'm very much warming to the idea - does he still frequent the forums? If so can I have his username to PM him with questions etc?
The auction has expired, and in any case I'd rather contact him through here.

After all the talk about resale value etc of the turbo conversion to be honest I'd think the V6 would arguably be even worse given a bunch of it is custom.
Also I need to consider that I only have interest in owning one car at a time currently - the car needs to suit daily driving as well as weekend warrior / track-day use.

[BlakeNZ]

the only reason that resale on that particular car could be difficult is because of the price.
the price is where it is, because it is VERY desirable, and it would cost plenty to replicate it.
It would be a great daily driver too, compared to a more highly strung turbo.
Iconic cars(and this IS an iconic car) tend to always find a buyer.

[fivebob]

I don't see how a V6 MR2 is any more desirable than a Turbo, or for that matter even an NA, to me it is far less desirable than a stock Turbo. As it ages it will be come even less desirable because people tend to look for an unmolested pristine example of the car they want.

IMO that car is way over priced for what it is, doesn't matter what it cost to build and how well it is done it's still worth no more than a stock one in similar condition, that is unless you're really sold on having a V6 MR2 and don't want to do it yourself, even then it's value is questionable.

[rollaholic]

i tend to agree with fivebob, but then again a car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

i personally would pay a slight premium for it over an NA 3S one, but less than a turbo one. seriously modified cars can be a hassle to insure, and to work on (as if sw20 engine bays werent cramped already...) not to mention get parts for.

its changed hands quite a few times since its builder sold it hasnt it?

[RomanV]

im not saying yours will turn out like this, but if you want an idea of how much hair pulling can go on, go check out romanVs build thread in the project section
(sorry roman!)

Hahaha, no offence taken... I think over the course of two car projects I've had an entire lifetime worth of car related problems already haha.

One relevant thing to this thread though, is to consider what happened when a valve guide came out of the engine's head on my Carina, because of an engine builders fault.

They replaced the damaged parts and don some labour on the head for 'free' but I did all of the labour to pull the motor back out and put it back in.
Even with my $0 per hour of my own labour I still had to pay for a new head gasket, new head bolts, new coolant, new oil, etc etc.
And had to reshim all of the valves because they were just given back in no particular order.
I was sure as shit glad that it wasnt an MR2 I was needing to remove the head from. Or even worse, paying someone else to do the above work for either car.

If you're paying someone else to spanner your projects, you can expect some pretty hefty bills when/if things like that happen.
We all hope these things dont happen, but sometimes they do, and they are more likely on something that's been modified...
But anything that goes wrong is still your financial burden even if it's someone elses mistake. Which is why a lot of mechanic shops etc dont want to go near this kind of work.

To be perfectly honest I'd just keep your MR2 as is, especially if it's a nice car already.

Yank the motor and get the cambelt, water pump, frost plugs, etc etc all replaced, get the gearbox sorted and be good to go for another 100,000kms without hassles.

The attrition rate of projects is pretty high, you'd be pretty gutted if things went pear shaped and your (previously perfectly fine MR2) went up for sale for not much as a non runner.

My Beams MR2 did about 20,000kms total after engine swap, and the following were a few of the problems during this time:

-Cambelt timing was set incorrectly, needed to pull the motor back out to check and fix.
-during assembly left a rubber gasket out of the oil pump, had to pull the motor back out to fix it.
-Didnt have an airflow meter with the car, had to buy one for $500+ brand new only option at the time.
-Airflow meter doesnt like being in the non factory airbox, had to buy one of those for $100+
-Was sold the wrong clutch/flywheel for the engine, chewed out the splines in the clutch plate and had to pull the motor back out and buy a new flywheel/clutch. Fancy clutch I bought was now worthless so $600 or so mistake if I recall.
-Incorrectly calibrated torque wrench meant clutch cover bolts came loose over time, had to pull motor and box back out.
-Handbrake cable snapped
-Speedo cable snapped
-Gearshift cable snapped
-Then finally the clutch blew up when I let someone else drove the car and they did something silly - Which I would have had to pull the motor and gearbox out for the 10th time to fix.

So decided... $&#$% that and parted it out.
Obviously most of the above problems were my own fault, as it was a first project and I was learning as I went.
However if you have even one similar problem as per above, you can expect a pretty big bill to fix it if someone else is the mechanic.
Even after moving to a much simpler to work on car (although with a much bigger scope of project) I havent had any fewer problems - it's just that when problems happen, it's 100x easier to diagnose and fix compared to an MR2.
And I dont feel beaten and broken and demoralised after an afternoon working on the car doing something.

There's still nothing I've driven which handles as awesomely as an MR2, but there's still nothing worse I've done than try to have one as a project hahaha.

My Dad still owns an SW20 - a faded red targa top auto gen 1. Despite being the utterly worst variation of SW20 it's still super fun to drive exactly as it is, no intentions or need to modify it at all... As it's enjoyable to just get in and drive it without knowing you're likely to have any hassles. This is the true joy of driving!

[Scrunty]

Thanks Roman.
I think/hope I've snapped out of my dream state for now and come back down to earth some what.
I really just want to get it into a state where I can start attending track-days again... don't need power to have fun on a track!

I went out and gave the body-work a through look-over in some decent light and it does not look great.. two small patches bubbling up on-top of the general shitness of sixteen year old paintwork.
I've seen the costs involved from your car and someone else on GP recentlyish for a full work-over on that.. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on it and evaluate what to do there in the next year or so.

Can anyone tell me if the turbo gen3/4 models run bigger/different brake setups to the G-Ltd?
I'm going to need new rotors all-around soon enough anyway, the light-duty they get and age has meant they are now gathering surface rust.
I'm thinking if I want to track it I might give the whole shebang an overhaul there - rebuild calipers? (I think a couple are a bit sticky also, get some squeaking while not braking)
Fluid most definitely needs a full flush.
Advice here required.

I have no idea how the suspension is holding up, hard to tell when everything has probably been slowly wearing day-in-day-out.
To be looked at after the engine and gearbox sorted I think.. will see what funds are left in the kitty.

Also any recommendations as to what would be a good idea to get sorted or replace while the box and engine are out? (assuming the engine has to come out)

Thanks once more for the solid advice all

[Grrrrrrr!]

Can anyone tell me if the turbo gen3/4 models run bigger/different brake setups to the G-Ltd?
I'm going to need new rotors all-around soon enough anyway, the light-duty they get and age has meant they are now gathering surface rust.

Nope, the JDM sw20s had two brake setups gen1 brakes, then the 92> gen2+ brakes, no difference between NA or turbo. Light surface rust isn't relevant, it disappears after the first few stops. Serious rust is a different story.

If you are staying NA all you really need is good pads and fluids so long as the other hardware is not rooted. Garnett (pureadrenaline) was running standard rotors and calipers with some ($$$) Endless pads and he is pushing a lot more power than you will be.
There are plenty of upgrade options including (330mm?) supra rotors and a mounting plate to move your existing calipers out to fit them, right up to serious money 6pots etc but probably you are better off spending that money on trackday fees and enjoying the car.

TRD sport brake fluid is a good fluid (its motul RBF600 with a different sticker on the bottle at half the price). Plenty of choices in pads, just get some decent pads for the track and swap them over for trackdays. (most good track pads dont work well when cold, so suck for daily driving)

Stainless braided lines aren't too expensive (~$200), so if your existing hoses need replacing they are a good upgrade for what might only be a few dollars more than standard rubber hoses.

Suspension..I'm yet to play with that.. OEM bilsteins aren't that bad, I hear good things about Koni dampers if you can't be arsed paying for a cert, otherwise "coilovers", but i'm not sure if anybody makes decent coilovers for the sw20 anymore. Have ridden in a gen3 NA sw20 with BC BR coilovers and full whiteline adjustable roll bars that handled really well, to the point that a lightly modded turbo sw20 couldn't keep up through the twisties.

[Akane]

Suspension side of things, upgraded from 93 stock bilsteins to TEIN Type Flex, night and day difference, no longer an understeering Piece of shit (except at very very low speeds), but the back end gets a bit nervous at moderate speeds (80kph+)
Also driven one with upgraded KONI's or Bilsteins or whatever, they're just like stock handling characteristics but stiffer, not really my thing.

[MoNk]

A few years ago I was on the hunt for a gen3+ turbo. Over 6 months of finding nothing I gave up and bought this; http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-ca ... 229405.htm (someone else reselling now)
I sold that one to pay for a wedding and then looked over another 6+ months looked for a gen3 turbo again and found mine.

I would play the waiting game. It's worth the wait! I don't know what a v6 is like, but when I first drove my turbo I freaked out at the speed.

I had TRD springs and new stock bilsteins on my gen3 NA and I loved them (also trd front and rear braces). Looking forward to my current struts crapping out.

[sergei]

Here is a reality about modifying cars.
The money I spent on modifying , what most people will consider shitboxes, would buy me at least two 2008+ WRX STI.
For example my ST165 GT4 is a money blackhole, and if I was wise, I would just save the money I spent on it and buy a 2008 WRX STI that Could dedicate just for track days (strip it out and put nice tires). The GT4 is still in pieces...
The pointless shit I did to my AE101, which I had to revert anyway when I gave it to my sister...

The best approach is following:
1) Decide what sort of performance you want from the car
2) Buy the car that already does from factory
3) ...
4) Profit.

If you can't afford the car with performance you want, you can't really afford to modify one to get similar performance.

Yes, I know, there is fun in modifying things. But that should be left to actual expendable income and time, and not done on daily drivers that you rely on to get to work.

[d1 mule]

^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^

[Alex B]

That is why I got the MPS, I just put it down to getting old/lazy.

[Akane]

Those MPS are surprisingly fast for what they are, even kept up with my MR2 until mid 2nd gear.

[Bling]

Mid second gear you'll be almost at the speed limit anyway? ~200kw doesn't hang around, used to burn around in the parents till they went all CX5 on me. What does no grip make these days anyway?

[Akane]

NO GRIP makes fark all power now, what happened was that I decided to install a Gen 3 MAP sensor that I bought off Craig many years ago.

I thought "well the tune that I have on the PowerFC is no good anymore because it points to the old Gen 2 MAP sensor's PIMVOLT settings - tuning according to voltage of the old MAP sensor + RPM).

So I zero'd it out without making a backup

So I thought I"d be able to tune it myself.

Armed with a laptop and a wideband. Little do I know that looking at the laptop and the wideband while doing 140kph is not an easy feat.

So I don't boost it past 0.5bar nowadays.

Nobody would rent out a dyno for me to tune, asked many places, as soon as they hear that I want to tune my own car, they said no, even if I pay full price.

[iOnic]

Do you have logging capability?

Do some logs and adjust fuel to achieve desired afr @ particular point.
Thats what I did when I did my E85 tune on the MPS. Scaled the whole map up to make it rich, Increased boost by 2psi, did a 4th gear WOT pull while watching (and logging) afr on gauge, did the have/want maths (divide afr you have at load point by afr you want at load that point and scale fuel at that load point by whatever you get from have/want). Adjusted entire map to achieve what I wanted then did another 4th gear WOT pull and repeat over several nights until I reached 20psi.

Eg did a pull, find afr at 4000 at full boost to be 13.5. Want to have 12 afr at 4000 (example) so divide 13.5/12 = 1.125. So look at fuel map at 4000rpm/full boost and find value of 8 (example) so scale (multiply) 8x1.125=9. So increasing the fuel value from 8 to 9 (add more fuel) should drop your afr from 13.5 to about 12. Its not exact but got me in the ballpark. I exported my logs to virtual dyno so I could compare run to run and see when gains started diminishing/turbo ran out of puff/other limiting factor in the setup. Been daily driving for 4 months like that and has loads of power. Could probably make more with an aggressive dyno tune but there's really no point.


closed road/dont condone on public roads blah blah etc etc

[Akane]

The logging software I have on my 14point7 wideband is kind of rubbish, or maybe due to dodgy wiring, but it's a really noisy input and the RPM / PIMVOLT spikes everywhere.

Tried to buy a FC-hako even paid for it, got a refund straight away and said they don't ship to NZ anymore due to a bad experience.

I'll give the logging software another go, the ignition MAP is alright, did you 100% out all your PIMVOLT and RPM and go by the 20x20 map all the way? I find it behaves different during WOT to part throttle, even if they land on the same load cell.

[iOnic]

I'm not on PFC just flashing stock ECU. Just giving a broad description of how I get around no dyno/can't tune while driving.