2E 12 Valve Starting Issue

[Jambun]

Hey guys,

New to the forum and Toyotas. Have tried the search function but seems to dislike small words such as 2E. I've got a frustrating problem with my 1992 Corolla. Its running a carbed 1.3 2E with a problem. I'll give the background story, a friend of mine was driving on the motorwa when it surged and died. Water was very low in the radiator and oil was about halfway on the dipstick.

Since then Ive checked for fuel, took the hose off after the pump and stuck it in a bottle. Thats all good.
Checked the spark, plugs were fouled but still sparking. Have since replaced with new BPREY11 as owners manual specifies.
Checked cambelt for wear and tear, seems OK. No expert though clearly
Replaced radiator with a second hand unit and hoses with brand new.
Done a compression test, didn't come back the greatest but upon speaking with a wrecker here in Wellington he belived it should still run but poorly.
Results were 1,3,2,4 - 90,90,65,65. I didn't put any oil down them and do a retest because I didn't know at the time. Regardless big difference :/ Replaced relays that concern 'engine' according to the fuse diagram.

It cranks over fine but won't start, not even a hiccup. My next step was to spray some engine starter down the air intake and roll down the hill to see if that works.

Any thought or insight to give? Currently I'm refusing to face the thought of having cooked it and needing to replace.

Cheers

[whynot]

Might be time to look for fuel issues. If you have spark and the timing is still correct that would be the next one I would check. I would be tempted to put a few spoons worth of fuel down the carbie then try to start it. I think those motors have a sight glass on the fuel bowl so you may be able to see if it has fuel to the carb.

[Crucible]

Very hard to say without looking at it but to find some direction spray engine start down the carb while someone cranks it over, no need to crash start it.

There are alot of variables but If you have pressure at the carb its quite rear to have zero fuel via carb into intake but start there first.

Make sure you fit new plugs first, if they are fuel fouled from alot of cranking etc it wont help.

Do the above and post back.

[rollaholic]

when you say checked cambelt, how far did you actually disassemble? can you confirm the cam pulley is turning while turning the motor over via the crank pulley?

[Jambun]

Might be time to look for fuel issues. If you have spark and the timing is still correct that would be the next one I would check. I would be tempted to put a few spoons worth of fuel down the carbie then try to start it. I think those motors have a sight glass on the fuel bowl so you may be able to see if it has fuel to the carb.

I don't know if the timing is correct unfortunately, don't have a timing gun and tbh wouldn't know exactly what to do but I'll add it the list

Very hard to say without looking at it but to find some direction spray engine start down the carb while someone cranks it over, no need to crash start it.

There are alot of variables but If you have pressure at the carb its quite rear to have zero fuel via carb into intake but start there first.

Make sure you fit new plugs first, if they are fuel fouled from alot of cranking etc it wont help.

Do the above and post back.

Thanks for that, I'll give it a crack tonight or tomorrow. Do they have a lug to attach a pressure gauge to?
I fitted new plugs yesterday, checked the owners manual for what kind.

when you say checked cambelt, how far did you actually disassemble? can you confirm the cam pulley is turning while turning the motor over via the crank pulley?

Just a visual check unfortunately to see if it had snapped But no I didn't turn it via crank but I believe its turning over because the fuel pump is activated by a 'trigger' hitting the lobe isn't it? That to me would say its turning but I could very well be wrong!

[Crucible]

If you have fuel at the carb, thats all you need to check. Spraying engine start in the manifold will confirm that fuel is entering the manifold. Its just to find direction. Fuel, Spark or a Mechanical problem.

[RS13]

The 2E engines came with two types of carb - the standard venturi type and a problematic slide-type. Normally when a 2E with a slide-carb becomes a hard starter, it is due to the cold-start valve (drivers' side of the engine next to the carb, green and black with vacuum lines going to it) failing, causing a rich mixture and hard starting when hot.. or a worn slide mechanism itself, although neither sound like your fault as they aren't generally things that would stop a running car in its' tracks. Hard to know what to do.. if it were my engine, after checking that I've got spark, fuel and timing and still not getting anywhere, I'd try another carb. But then, with compression figures like those, it could be a waste of time spending money on troubleshooting if the rings/headgasket/valvetrain are toast!

So all four plugs are wet with fuel after cranking it over? And you're sure you've got a nice, fat spark? Checking the timing in a 2E is pretty straightforward, whip the top cambelt cover off and you'll see a hole marked "2E" in the cam pulley. Wind the engine over by hand (ignition off etc) until the notch on the crank pulley lines up with the "0" on the plastic cover. The hole in the cam pulley should be pretty much in the 12 o'clock position, if you look through it you'll see a little dimple cast into the seal housing behind it which should be in the middle of the hole. If everything lines up, your cam timing is fine and if you take the distributor cap off, the rotor should be pointing more or less at the #1 lead electrode.

Was the radiator leaking? Was the car overheating when it died? And you're sure about those compression numbers, defintely 90,65,90,65 from 1 to 4? Or 90,90,65,65?

[Jambun]

Apoligies for such a lack of response. I'm usually not this bad, work and sickness seem to be holding me back.

If you have fuel at the carb, thats all you need to check. Spraying engine start in the manifold will confirm that fuel is entering the manifold. Its just to find direction. Fuel, Spark or a Mechanical problem.

Fuel at the carb. Check! Spose I can rule that out safely.

The 2E engines came with two types of carb - the standard venturi type and a problematic slide-type. Normally when a 2E with a slide-carb becomes a hard starter, it is due to the cold-start valve (drivers' side of the engine next to the carb, green and black with vacuum lines going to it) failing, causing a rich mixture and hard starting when hot.. or a worn slide mechanism itself, although neither sound like your fault as they aren't generally things that would stop a running car in its' tracks. Hard to know what to do.. if it were my engine, after checking that I've got spark, fuel and timing and still not getting anywhere, I'd try another carb. But then, with compression figures like those, it could be a waste of time spending money on troubleshooting if the rings/headgasket/valvetrain are toast!

I believe its the venturi type, I can't see any green hoses! It might be the timing, Ive got pictures I'll attach at the end of tis post.

So all four plugs are wet with fuel after cranking it over? And you're sure you've got a nice, fat spark?

There as a bit of moisture on them but sopping wet. Spark, I didn't test with the new spark plugs, ie had each one out so I could visually see the spark. IO just saw that the old ones were lazy and orange so simply replaced.

Checking the timing in a 2E is pretty straightforward, whip the top cambelt cover off and you'll see a hole marked "2E" in the cam pulley. Wind the engine over by hand (ignition off etc) until the notch on the crank pulley lines up with the "0" on the plastic cover. The hole in the cam pulley should be pretty much in the 12 o'clock position, if you look through it you'll see a little dimple cast into the seal housing behind it which should be in the middle of the hole. If everything lines up, your cam timing is fine and if you take the distributor cap off, the rotor should be pointing more or less at the #1 lead electrode.

So I did this, might blind but couldn't a 0 on the plastic cover ANYWHERE but I have done what else you said. There are two dimples and neither on them line up perfectly with the cam pulley (see pictures) and when I pulled the dizzy cap off it wasn't pointing directly at #1 but as you said more or less.

Was the radiator leaking? Was the car overheating when it died? And you're sure about those compression numbers, defintely 90,65,90,65 from 1 to 4? Or 90,90,65,65?

Unfortunately I barely drove it prior to this incident (work van) and it was parked on the road so I didn't look at it too closely. When I took the cap off after this this happened it took just under 3 litres to fill again so I think I can assume it had a leak somewhere. My flatmate was driving it at the time it happened and I quote "can't recall exactly but when I popped the bonnet there was a bit of smoke and it was really warm and low on oil,.

Yes the numbers are the first, 90,65,90,65. Might've been closer to 70 but roundabout, again I state I didn't put oil down the spark holes to confirm/deny if they improved.

[RS13]

Sorry mate I was sure the lower cover had graduations on it. You can try looking down the front of the motor at the crank sprocket, it also has a notch which lines up with another raised dimple when at TDC.. have a read of this about halfway down the page, its' a 3E but crank sprocket is the same.

http://oldschool.co.nz/2011/forum/index ... ing-marks/

[Jambun]

Sorry mate I was sure the lower cover had graduations on it. You can try looking down the front of the motor at the crank sprocket, it also has a notch which lines up with another raised dimple when at TDC.. have a read of this about halfway down the page, its' a 3E but crank sprocket is the same.

http://oldschool.co.nz/2011/forum/index ... ing-marks/

Awesome thanks for that, ill look at it tomorrow!
Food for thought that has just come back to me. When I was turning it over, there was one point where it got quite hard to turn it. I was putting a fair amount of effort into it but when I got past that it spun pretty easily. Sinking feeling something is making contact inside.

[RS13]

Just compression I'd say, you've got a cylinder with both valves closed trying to compress the air. You'll notice when it gets hard, if you let go it'll spring back a little bit, totally normal.

[Jambun]

RIGHT. Read the above and another nosey under the bonnet. TDC lines up with the 2E mark so thats can be ruled out.

(Slightly blurry but you can see the dimple.

While I was there I thought Id crank it cuz I can and this time record. What I heard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihuIBHz ... e=youtu.be

My next step was going to be clean out the carb but not sure if it'd be worth it.

[Crucible]

My next step was going to be clean out the carb but not sure if it'd be worth it.

Does it fire with new plugs and engine start? Do that first.

[RS13]

If you're getting plenty of fuel to the plugs then there wouldn't be much point I'd say. When you said earlier that the spark was orange, did the new plugs give you a better spark? It is possible to have a spark but not enough to ignite the cylinder.. in the case of a failed coil etc. Had that recently actually, my workmate's 323 had cut out suddenly, it had everything it needed to run but it didn't.. swapped out the dizzy (internal coil) with a used one, found that the plugs sparked much more brightly, hooked it all up and it fired up first crank.

Anyway.. you've got fuel, spark and correct timing.. your compression numbers are pretty poor and from the sounds of it you've possibly got a blown headgasket, but it should still kick over/run albeit badly, even if only two cylinders were firing. You're getting to the stage where you're either going to have to start swapping out parts to troubleshoot (I'd start with the distributor, maybe even borrow one to try) or pay a mechanic to troubleshoot it for you.

[Jambun]

My next step was going to be clean out the carb but not sure if it'd be worth it.

Does it fire with new plugs and engine start? Do that first.

Yessir!

If you're getting plenty of fuel to the plugs then there wouldn't be much point I'd say. When you said earlier that the spark was orange, did the new plugs give you a better spark? It is possible to have a spark but not enough to ignite the cylinder.. in the case of a failed coil etc. Had that recently actually, my workmate's 323 had cut out suddenly, it had everything it needed to run but it didn't.. swapped out the dizzy (internal coil) with a used one, found that the plugs sparked much more brightly, hooked it all up and it fired up first crank.

Anyway.. you've got fuel, spark and correct timing.. your compression numbers are pretty poor and from the sounds of it you've possibly got a blown headgasket, but it should still kick over/run albeit badly, even if only two cylinders were firing. You're getting to the stage where you're either going to have to start swapping out parts to troubleshoot (I'd start with the distributor, maybe even borrow one to try) or pay a mechanic to troubleshoot it for you.

I never rechecked what they looked like. Was assuming/hoping it would solve the issue. I'll give the distributor a look at after the above and rechecking the plugs.
This is thinking abit ahead but when it is running can you bubble test or something similar to see if the headgasket has gone?

Thanks for your guys responses, I appreciate it.

[Crucible]

Yes you can check for headgasket leak with it running using a chemical test (tk) or do a leakdown test using compressed air. If it is bad enough and blown into a water jacket it will bubble of blow out the radiator while cranking. Top the rad up to the top of the neck and get someone to wind it over. I suspect with the numbers above it maybe gone between two cylinders, but its a guess without testing it properly.

But as RS13 said..it should still fire regardless. Spark should be blue and jump at least a one inch gap. You can earth a test light and check spark at a lead terminal. Start on the terminal and pull it slowly out to about an inch it should jump it and snap. It its weak and orange i may be going out undet compression, I have seen it many times which normally means shorted coil windings and no magnetic field.

The only reliable way to test a coil imo is using a scope and checking current ramping, otherwise as above just fit a complete known good 2nd hand dissy.

[RS13]

I suspect with the numbers above it maybe gone between two cylinders, but its a guess without testing it properly.

I thought that too, however the low cylinders aren't adjacent to each other? Hmm.

[Crucible]

I suspect with the numbers above it maybe gone between two cylinders, but its a guess without testing it properly.

I thought that too, however the low cylinders aren't adjacent to each other?

Ah, my bad I had read it wrong.

[Jambun]

Yes you can check for headgasket leak with it running using a chemical test (tk) or do a leakdown test using compressed air. If it is bad enough and blown into a water jacket it will bubble of blow out the radiator while cranking. Top the rad up to the top of the neck and get someone to wind it over. I suspect with the numbers

O.

I've already done that by accident. I left the cap off and cranked it and spurted water everywhere.

You can earth a test light and check spark at a lead terminal.

Woulndn't know how to do that tbh! Last time I just put the plug next to the strut tower and cranked it to see.

[Crucible]

I've already done that by accident. I left the cap off and cranked it and spurted water everywhere.

Ok. That should not happen, there shouldnt be pressure in the cooling system with the cap off, which only means one thing..the head has to come off. Id say the resistance with you turning it over by hand is the bad cyl compressing coolant.