4age baffle sump

[KIPH8N]

Im looking around on how to baffle a standard 4age sump and how to design the baffle plate on them under the standard baffle. Do you guys have any ideas or pictures on your setup.

[Bazda]

We sell a Moroso one if your interested. Little pricey but has a built in windage tray.
$730
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=89805

[matt dunn]

This is what I had in my race car before I run the 7A two piece sump,


Worked great, never got oil surge on the track and quite simple, two layers in there.

[QikStarlie]

check the pick up height also, some of them sit quite high from the bottom of the sump.

[fxgt race]

I've only ever used a standard sump on my race car and had no issue with oil starvation, so if its good
enough for a car with slicks it will be pretty safe on anything less.

[Vertigo]

Yes, but its one of those mods that doesnt necessarily make its presence known off the bat. You might one day starve for oil, then wish you had baffling. Its a preventative measure that you cant simply shrug off by saying "never happened to me yet", because one day it probably will.

Btw, matt, that is a sexy sump.

[KIPH8N]

I went on puki track in my ae111 and i think thats how my motor started knocking. It had marks on the side of two pistons.
So after doing a rebuild 4age turbo will be going to the tracks again. Really don't want to face the same problem.

So its a two layer sump. Cut of the standard baffle and replace it with something similar to yours. What does the bottom plate look like? Its not a race car or anything just wanting to have a fun day out with friends.

[touge_ae101]

We have never baffled the sump on the ae82 racecar either. if the g-forces of slicks can't make them oil starve then I'm sure it is fine. We pull the bottom end down at the end of each season and only see minimal wear on the bearings.

More important for track use is a massive oil cooler and good quality oil. 4ages like to run hot oil, temperatures around 140-170deg aren't unheard of i you don't have an oil cooler.
We found that a small 12row Mocal one wasn't big enough and were still seeing 140deg oil temps. Once oil cooler sprung a leak so we bypassed for a qualifying session.. after 3 laps oil temp was up over 170deg and oil was burnt. Went to a greddy 16 row and all problems sorted. Also run the best oil - we run Motul 300V and it makes a massive difference to both power and protection of the engine.

[Bazda]

In my car I was getting surge with the 7a sump.
After I viewed the in car vids you could see it happening in the gauge.

The surge wanst really bad so the engine bearings were still fine.
Buy the fact it was getting some surge told me I needed something.

I did the 2 horizontal plates like matt and it worked perfect after that. No my surge on my gauge.

So if your running average oil and it's getting really hot then a small amount of surge can be bad.
If your running good oil and temps are good you would prob be fine for a long time.

[Ninja25t]

I thought I would add some oil pressure data I collected over the weekend to this topic.

I started doing a bit of research around oil surge problems with blacktop 4age's after having to rebuild mine following running a bearing a few months back. My intention was to get back to Hampton Downs for some track days and I was concerned by the opinions that seemed to range from should be OK through to oil starvation and almost certain engine failure around the sweeper... So the typical web-based minefield of misinformation really.

Anyway because my own experience plus that presented in this forum suggested that "should be OK" was the most likely outcome I headed back to Hampton Downs armed with a data-logging capable oil pressure/temp gauge. This weekend was my 3rd time out this year, but the 1st time I had the opportunity to get the data-logging set up. My car is a 1998 BZ-R with minimal mods (headers and front pipe being the only horsepower related mods) running on R888 semi slicks.

Hopefully the inserted picture, which shows logging from a couple of laps will work...

Oil pressure Hampton Downs 19 April 2015.jpg (153.67 KiB) Viewed 13934 times

The results I find interesting are:
- Clearly surge is occurring, although not to the point of "starvation" with lowest oil pressures being around 27-28 psi. Oil pressure is 60 psi at 3,000 rpm under normal driving conditions. I'm not sure whether pressures under half that are risking damage or just increased wear?
- The greatest surge and lowest oil pressures actually occur through turns 2 to 5, although the duration through these turns is only 2-3 seconds (or less). The sweeper (turn 6) results in a period of 6-7 seconds of reduced pressure although it is about 10 psi higher than that occurring through turns 2 to 5
- My throttle control is all over the place

I would be interested in any comments.

Cheers,
Shane

[Flannelman]

GOLD has a price and its not cheap. The above info is the holy grail... and all I can offer is my thanks.

Points to note. Pressure got less as time wore on. This is heat on the oil, making it thinner.

I added 15mm to the base tube, flared, welded and shaped to give a trumpet entry.

I used a coby type resonator, cut it to the length I needed, beat it oval with a hammer. Marked its shape on the stock sump, cut/weld/ clean up and paint.
In total, holds a full 4 liters.

Tilt test with water, at the bottom of the dip stick, water will fall out the side of the sump before the bottom of the pickup becomes exposed. Had about 10mm under the water. While I doubt this would stop the suction of the pump being able to pull air with such little coverage, in stock form this would be completely exposed.

The photos are on facebook and Im having issue getting them off it and on here!

[Flannelman]

Pickup modification. Standard has 30-40mm between bottom of the sump and the opening. So, i added 15mm of tube, split, welded and shaped for both a lower pickup and nicer entry. Stock is just a flush cut end, no flare.



New sump, Smaller extension is to the firewall. Clearance between lay shaft is 7-10mm.

I did this as my borrowed engine from a friend ran a bearing due to high RPM on low oil. While I caused the damaged needing the new shells, the old bearing tell of multiple times the shells had been exposed to lack of oil pressure. Lucky the crank was undamaged so new bearings, oil flush and new oil filter was the cure. I built this as it was a case of "while the sump is off I might as well do it".

Sump will hold a full 4 litres now.

[Ninja25t]

Yes, the reduction in pressure is probably a function of oil temperature, but also, that would have been my second full lap, so it is probably also partly the result of both the driver and tyres coming up to temp too The last cycle is basically representative of the remainder of the session, i.e. pressures didn't go lower or temps higher.

Your sump mod looks interesting, although beyond my fabrication skills. However, I have a spare sump and pickup so will I try and at least get some baffles (per Matt Dunn's previous set up) sorted at some stage and log what happens.

[blackmk3]

After running the bearings in my 7M-GTE with semi slicks at the track i built this sump with winged gates
I learnt the hard way so so so very worth it to know under all situations you know theres oil getting in there

I know its totally diffrent to a 4AGE sump but could help with designs and ideas

[1I1]

On the subject of 4AGE sumps, I stumbled across this the other day
http://twosrus.com/catalog/product_info ... cts_id=889

[AE111_JAMES]

Wish i saw that before! lol. looks good.

[matt dunn]

That states for hard right hand turns,

so presumably there will be different requirements for baffles in FWD sump to a RWD sump.

[AE111_JAMES]

Dont forget the mass amounts of 4age powah that will create many g forces

[Ninja25t]

I thought it might be useful to provide some before and after data following installing a simple gated baffle in my car. I managed to get hold of a secondhand baffle like Mark posted. The bottom half was not available so instead I rolled the edge of the existing horizontal baffle plate to restrict oil flowing underneath the new vertical baffle. Couple of photos attached which hopefully show what I mean.

I headed back to Hampton Downs last weekend and logged oil pressures to see what effect the baffle had. Aside from the baffle all other variables were the same (give or take), no other mods to car, tyres, lap times etc.

I have overlaid the new data with the baffle (red line) on the old data (blueish line) with no baffle. As you can see the baffle resulted in a dramatic reduction in oil pressure fluctuations with a range of about 10 psi versus around 30 psi recorded without the baffle. With the baffle the pressure generally stayed above about 55 psi compared to frequently dropping below 35 psi previously, even the minimums held 20 psi above the lowest recorded without the baffle. So, overall looks like very simple and effective mod

[Bling]

Hard to argue with that! Nice work.