Catch cans/breather kits

Stealer Of Souls · Post by **Stealer Of Souls** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:46 pm

Hey there...

I'm planning to put a breather kit/catch can on my car. I haven't properly checked everything out yet, I'm still planning. What I wanna know is...
Is there a way to return the caught oil to the sump without needing to empty the can manually?

rxtoy · Post by **rxtoy** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:52 pm

sorry to jump in on your topic but its sort of related, my oil breather has a pipe that goes to my air filter, it's not a toyota but i'm pretty sure most cars have this as standard. how bad is it that there's oil ending up in my air filter from this? is it meant to leak oil? what's wrong if it's not meant to leak oil? and how bad is it? and what's the damn thing for anyway? why do i need a breather?

RedMist · Post by **RedMist** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:20 pm

The entire reason for a catch can is the oil pushed in vapor from the vents isn't worthy of return. I would recommend that you just catch it and empty it when full.

blitza · Post by **blitza** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:07 am

RedMist wrote:The entire reason for a catch can is the oil pushed in vapor from the vents isn't worthy of return. I would recommend that you just catch it and empty it when full.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmm what the hell?? where did you get that idea from?

maybe you dont want oil mist going throught your engine and leaving big nasty carbon depisits on the tops of your pistions and valves. as long as you have a worthy filter on your breather bottle there is no reason that it cant be draining to the sump, some top class breathers have this facility built in, (good luck finding somewhere on the engine to add oil to)

oh, yeah, and i dont know shit aboot shit.....

Disco · Post by **Disco** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:33 am

blitza wrote:
RedMist wrote:The entire reason for a catch can is the oil pushed in vapor from the vents isn't worthy of return. I would recommend that you just catch it and empty it when full.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmm what the hell?? where did you get that idea from?

<snip>

oh, yeah, and i dont know sh*t aboot sh*t.....

Sorry dude, but it shows...

*chuckle*

Whats the problem with emptying it out anyhow? - on your street car you're probably going to be emptying it out maybe once a year if you're lucky....

The reason race cars have a sump return is because they produce so much blow-by the catch tank fills up and engine runs out of oil.... so to avoid having to pit in every lap and fill up with oil.... yada yada yada....

ChaosAD · Post by **ChaosAD** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:10 pm

I have asked this question a few times but never got an answer.

I have a bluetop 4age and they are known to fill the head up with oil quicker than it can drain away, the problem with this is that the oil level reaches the breather tube and flows through there into the intake plenum!
this can cause oil surges (happened to a mate, you should have seen his face when I pulled part of a conrod out of one of the holes in the block!), and oil also reduces the octane rating causing detonation!

The only way to fix this that I can think of is an oil air seperator (different to a catch can) that drains back into the sump.

Does anyone know where I can one?

RedMist · Post by **RedMist** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:53 pm

What do you think is going to be pushed to enter a vapor first? The condenced oil or something like fuel or water vapor in your oil?
Hence most if not all oil catch cans are exactly that, they catch oil.
Yes I realize the issue with draining large quantities of oil, especially with gapless "total seal" rings, such as they are on my race car. My car breathes even on idle, however I'm not about to re-introduce heavily airated oil, mixed with fuel and other contaimnants back into my lubrication system.
Where did I get this idea from?
Several sources including a majority of off road and circuit racecars. Some of my most respected tuners, books such as "4 stroke performance tuning" "Tune to win". Additionally my first custom "catch can" did exactly this and you should have seen the shyte that was left as residue. I still temporarily run this however I've an accusump on order from the states and I'll run an excavator pump and vent this directly to atmosphere
(via a filter of course)

Why would you catch oil vapors and trap them for several months, just to syphon off the top layer when the catch can fills? Euuuugh!

RedMist · Post by **RedMist** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:02 pm

ChaosAD, you goddit!
Much better solution.

EVLGTZ · Post by **EVLGTZ** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:22 pm

RedMist wrote:What do you think is going to be pushed to enter a vapor first? The condenced oil or something like fuel or water vapor in your oil?
Hence most if not all oil catch cans are exactly that, they catch oil.
Yes I realize the issue with draining large quantities of oil, especially with gapless "total seal" rings, such as they are on my race car. My car breathes even on idle, however I'm not about to re-introduce heavily airated oil, mixed with fuel and other contaimnants back into my lubrication system.
Where did I get this idea from?
Several sources including a majority of off road and circuit racecars. Some of my most respected tuners, books such as "4 stroke performance tuning" "Tune to win". Additionally my first custom "catch can" did exactly this and you should have seen the shyte that was left as residue. I still temporarily run this however I've an accusump on order from the states and I'll run an excavator pump and vent this directly to atmosphere
(via a filter of course)

Why would you catch oil vapors and trap them for several months, just to syphon off the top layer when the catch can fills? Euuuugh!

totally agree with ya mate!

Stealer Of Souls · Post by **Stealer Of Souls** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:28 pm

Okay, I've got the 4A-GE problem of too much oil getting into the head and not being able to get back down... Hence why I was going for a catch can... but now I'm confused... What do i need?

Catch can?
Separator?
I thought these two were one in the same!!

Help!!

ChaosAD · Post by **ChaosAD** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:26 am

A catch can is just that, an empty can that catches the oil vapour and usually has a breather on it.

An oil/air seperator is more complex, it is plummed between the cam covers and the intake manifold and it actually strains the oil vapour out of the blow by air.
This is usually done with baffles, perforated plates, steel wool or even by centrifuge (it spins the air round really fast causing the oil to get flicked onto the side of the can). Since the oil doesnt get contaminated with water vapour from the breather filter like the catch cans it is ok for it to drain back into the sump.

Another problem with catch cans is that they can spray oil mist all over the engine bay, but this usually only happens to worn out engines.

ChaosAD · Post by **ChaosAD** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:29 am

Could I just put a 't' piece in the pcv hose and use a fat piece of pipe to connect it to the sump?

RedMist · Post by **RedMist** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:03 am

ChaosAD. I had also thought of this concept. However how do you get over the pressure differential? The sump is pressurised, the head vented to atmosphere. Oil or pressure will naturally want to push any oil up your sump vent. I must get myself a smallport and see how Toyota created the external oil gallery.

ChaosAD · Post by **ChaosAD** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:16 pm

Theres some pics of 4age blocks here> http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech ... 0Block.htm
Theres a pic of the oil return pipe in one of the pics.

I would be alright if I use a fat pipe and tap into the sump/block high up wouldnt I? Because it wouldnt be any different to the other oil return holes/galleries.

most oil/air seperators have a drain tube from the bottem of them to the dipstick tube although it probably wouldnt flow enough.

RedMist · Post by **RedMist** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:22 pm

Let me know how you get on as I've just put up with my Bluetop pumping out half a litre an hour (at peak noise). With my crankcase evac system on order I'll have to tap into my sump to drain oil back from the head, much as you are doing!

blitza · Post by **blitza** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:39 pm

RedMist wrote:ChaosAD. I had also thought of this concept. However how do you get over the pressure differential? The sump is pressurised, the head vented to atmosphere. Oil or pressure will naturally want to push any oil up your sump vent. I must get myself a smallport and see how Toyota created the external oil gallery.

umm, so now you're saying that the sump and the cam gear area are some how separated internal airspace wise?
Ho**as have breathers both from the crank case and the cam area, to help avoid windage losses.

external oil gallery's are just the plumbing on the outside, not integral to the block/head, you can do it reasonably easily, but not really worth the hassle/mess/unreliability.

and scene as we are now talking race engines, you gotta have a catch can 'cause noone wants all that shit on the track, except, it seems formula first (vee)

Stealer Of Souls · Post by **Stealer Of Souls** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:19 pm

I thought there would be a pressure problem associated with just piping the oil back to the sump...

Anyone know how to overcome this???

phat_levin · Post by **phat_levin** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:17 pm

ok im interested in this whole catchcan idea but im a dumb ass and got no idea what they are or what they do so could some1 explain simply?!

ChaosAD · Post by **ChaosAD** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:13 am

Just wondering how everyone has got around this problem and if anyone has found a proper 'oil/air seperator'

and is the minimum 1L catchcan capacity required for clubsport or just on the track?

No smart remarks about this thread being 1 year old either cos if I had started a new thread i'd have been given shit about not doing a search.

kingcorolla · Post by **kingcorolla** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:47 pm

your all a bunch of showponys! :lol:

keep it real.