4AGZE Lightend Fly Wheel

[Dr-X]

heavier flywheel woudl make it easier to launch, lighter one would make it alot more difficult.

edit: just read your post
yes you are correct.

[fangsport]

Dr-X- the main confusion being aired is that you arn't actually increasing torque/hp but shifting where they are developing peak figures.

[4AGTE]

ok any one who can get me a super f*&^%$# light fly wheel (as it wont matter how light it is as i have boost from what i gather) PM me please

[vvega]

or you could play with other aspects of the engine, such as intake design injector placement etc etc
but i think the point you are trying to make is changing the flywheel to alter the torque wont work, which is correct

Read my post again, but pay attention this time.

If i have a lightend fly wheel this will kill bottom end will it not and help it in the high end rev's?
Torque and hp are directly linked and you canot change one with out the other being different right?
But you can change your tourqe/hp down low with cam gears/ fuel ratios.

Is this not right?

Correct, I'm just trying to bash out of peoples heads the idea of sacrificing power for torque at any particular rev range without changing drive ratios.

The point I'm trying to make is that statements such as "I'm trying to do this to increase my bottom end torque" are fundamentally impossible, unless you're talking about going to a different diff ratio.

why dont you let me help

the eqaustion is

T = HP x 5252
rpm

T = torque (in lb-ft)
HP = horsepower
5252 = constant
rpm = revolutions per minute

now buy that forumlar the only 2 ways to increase hp is to increase toruqe or rpm

you can increase torque without increasing rpm and you can increase increase power in tha same way
simple

the only true way to increase power or torque in via engine efficancey
there is no other way


the torque figgure yoy all talk of i a formular in witch you can calculate the givin output from a lever(crabnkshaft) at a givin speed and then is divided buy the mechanial effciance of your engine

this give you the dnyo figure you all love and see

so
some simple bits of info
you can increase toruqe
you can increase hp
you can increase rpm
you can increase volumetric effiancey to iover 100%


most iof what you have waffed is questionalble

as power and torqe are directly link you cannot increse one withou the other in a givn rpm

this basical say that yes you can cgange touque at a givin rpm in a turbo motor simply by applyin more boost


you will not increase power of tourqe bu slapping on a lioghted flywheel
in fact once you ingae the cluct it will do $&#$% all just adds to the rest of the 50-60 kilos or drive chan already hannging off it

i may have missunder stood what you were tring to say X but for the most of it i think you need to go and red a book to be sure of what your saying

v

[Mr Revhead]

the point i was trying to make is it is possible to change torque or horsepower with out affecting the other, or affecting it much.
you can alter the manifolds, cams, ecu, in fact just about anything!
now with exhaustive dyno tuning it can be possible to have a motor develop 100hp and 100nm (for example)
now you may want that torque figure lower, but keep the hp. so you experiment. now every engine and set up is different so in cases it wont be possible, but in some cases you can find mods that wil change the torque to how you desire without adversly affecting the hp. of course it may change a small amount but its doable.

as power and torqe are directly link you cannot increse one withou the other in a givn rpm

i agree with vvega on that point, but the point im trying to make is you can change torque at one rev point, while not altering hp at another.... not at the same point, eg torque peak 2500 rpm, hp peak 5500rpm.
that i think is the key to what im saying!

and to 4agte, ill have a price for you no later than monday morning

[jondee86]

Engines make TORQUE.
They do not make power.
Power is a derived value (it cannot be measured directly).
It is the product of TORQUE times RPM.
Torque is the product of the Mean Effective Pressure
exerted on the top of the piston times the piston area.
MEP is influenced by compression ratio, combustion
efficiency, volumetric efficiency etc.
Engines produce torque at the crankshaft.
Gearing changes the torque available at the wheels.
The flywheel is a rotating mass.
Torque is required to accelerate a rotating mass.
Reduce the inertia of a rotating mass and it will
accelerate faster with the same torque applied.
Reducing the inertia does not increase the power.

These are facts, not matters of opinion.

I'm putting a lightened flywheel in my engine

Cheers....

jondee86

[FLAWLES]

mmm and the diameter of the sun = the radius of the moon mmmm yes

yes engine make torque power is a by product just like speed mmmm gone in 60sec

to be honest i wouldnt even bother with a littend flywheel just get a nice h/d clutch and get the flywheel skimmed a couple of tho should do better

[matt dunn]

the point i was trying to make is it is possible to change torque or horsepower with out affecting the other, or affecting it much.

Hp = torque x revs or whatever

so anything you do to the torque will affect hp.

From what i understand torque is ..

The downward force on the conrod X the distance from the centre of the crank journal to the centre of the crank ( half the stroke)

So how can the flywheel affect touque?

[kingcorolla]

i might as well put in on this one...

lets start by defining the two..

power- the engines ability to do work
torque- a twisting or turning force

fitting a light flywheel will not change the downward force on the crank, but WILL increase the engines ability to do work, but will sacifice the engines operation at the same time.

Dr-x is right when he says changing the gear ratios will increase tourque available at the wheels. Why do u think we take off in 1st and not 2nd? there is more torque available in 1st. eg. more engine rotation per wheel rotation, eg more force on the drivetrain

[Dr-X]

the point i was trying to make is it is possible to change torque or horsepower with out affecting the other, or affecting it much

NO IT'S NOT! Go read a book ffs! If you increase torque, you proportionately increase hp, period. Like it has been said, engines done produce power, they produce torque, and hp is a derived value. Without exception, if you're increasing your torque, you're also increasing your horsepower.

BTW - interesting fact I found out the other day (dont rip me if this is wrong, but I think the source is pretty reliable) - Apparantly on every car, torque (ft/lb) and power figures (hp) will always cross at 5252rpm on a dyno graph. Of course, because a lot of dyno graphs use different scales and arent perfectly accurate, it's not always apparant.

[jondee86]

Some guy wrote this a couple of weeks back...

Taking weight out of a flywheel doesn't make any difference to power, but it does reduce the inertia. This means less torque is absorbed in accelerating the flywheel, making more torque available for accelerating your vehicle. This will only be felt in the low gears, where the rate of change in engine speed is greatest .

A modest reduction in weight (at the outside rim for best effect) will not affect the driveability of your car.

To make the point quite clear.... changing the weight/inertia of the flywheel does not change the amount of torque the engine produces. But for those few seconds when the engine is accelerating RAPIDLY, there will be more torque available at the wheels.

Cheers.....

jondee86

[kingcorolla]

well i guess that proves us all wrong then. Turn off ure computers guys, coz "some guy" wrote that a wile ago.

[Dr-X]

Some guy wrote this a couple of weeks back...

Taking weight out of a flywheel doesn't make any difference to power, but it does reduce the inertia. This means less torque is absorbed in accelerating the flywheel, making more torque available for accelerating your vehicle. This will only be felt in the low gears, where the rate of change in engine speed is greatest .

A modest reduction in weight (at the outside rim for best effect) will not affect the driveability of your car.

To make the point quite clear.... changing the weight/inertia of the flywheel does not change the amount of torque the engine produces. But for those few seconds when the engine is accelerating RAPIDLY, there will be more torque available at the wheels.

Cheers.....

jondee86

Yeah, more magical torque came from the mysterious 'power land'. Goody, why bother with anything else when we have free magical torque at our wheels!

[jondee86]

Some guy wrote this a couple of weeks back...

Taking weight out of a flywheel doesn't make any difference to power, but it does reduce the inertia. This means less torque is absorbed in accelerating the flywheel, making more torque available for accelerating your vehicle. This will only be felt in the low gears, where the rate of change in engine speed is greatest .

A modest reduction in weight (at the outside rim for best effect) will not affect the driveability of your car.

To make the point quite clear.... changing the weight/inertia of the flywheel does not change the amount of torque the engine produces. But for those few seconds when the engine is accelerating RAPIDLY, there will be more torque available at the wheels.

Cheers.....

jondee86

Yeah, more magical torque came from the mysterious 'power land'. Goody, why bother with anything else when we have free magical torque at our wheels!

You haven't understood a word of it, have you ??

OK, I'll make it even simpler. If you have a certain amount of torque available from the engine, and you accelerate rapidly in a low gear, all the rotating parts of the drive line have to accelerate, and this absorbs torque.

If you reduce the weight/inertia of the flywheel, it requires less torque to accelerate the flywheel, leaving more torque to pass down the driveline, and eventually translate into traction (or lack of it) at the wheels

The total amount of torque produced by the engine does not change, and the effect is only apparent when the engine speed is changing RAPIDLY. Nothing magical here, it is just a question of where you choose to use the available torque.

Cheers......

jondee86

[kingcorolla]

ye, id say jondees theory makes sense, but so do others.

the question im wondering, is does more weight in rotating parts absorb torque? or the engines ability to rotate? which therefore is power loss. After all, hp is only a derived value, and torque and hp work in relation, so if more rotating mass absorbs torque, it must absorb power as well.

remembering in point is that the reson for this thread is that 4AGTE wanted to DECREASE torque in low-mid range, to stop exsessive wheelspin remember? or at least shift his max power/torque figures. maybe we should be arguing about that, rather than every theory under the sun about rotating mass vs torque??

[jondee86]

the question im wondering, is does more weight in rotating parts absorb torque?

You are on to it In general terms, it takes a Force (in this case torque) to Accelerate a Mass (in this case all the rotating parts in the drive line). Reducing the mass allows the same amount of torque to produce a greater rate of acceleration. Lighter is better when you are looking for more acceleration

Better not to think in terms of Power.... think of how much Torque you have at a certain RPM. Fiddling with your engine changes how much torque it makes, and where in the rpm range it makes it. Diesels make big torque at low rpm's and F1 cars make some torque at 17 or 18,000 rpms. The power may be about the same. It's just a question of what sort of tool you you want to do a job !!!

Launching a car is a balancing act between tyre traction, clutch, gearing and engine characteristics. Think about it.... why did 4AGTE resort to launching in second ?? To reduce the amount of torque available at the wheels because he was exceeding the available traction. Downside, the clutch takes a hammering !!!!

Cheers....

jondee86

[Dr-X]

jondee86 - Yes, you're absolutely right, my apologies for misunderstanding what you had said.

the question im wondering, is does more weight in rotating parts absorb torque? or the engines ability to rotate?

Torque, basically, is the engines ability to rotate.

remembering in point is that the reson for this thread is that 4AGTE wanted to DECREASE torque in low-mid range, to stop exsessive wheelspin remember? or at least shift his max power/torque figures. maybe we should be arguing about that, rather than every theory under the sun about rotating mass vs torque??

Like I said earlier, 4AGTE's traction problems are driver fault, and nothing to do with the power of the car. There are plenty of people dragging far more powerful cars without the kind of traction problems he's talking about. 4AGTE just needs to learn how to drive his car.

I think we can safely say that a lightened flywheel will do this guy no help, and only harm. If you want better 1/4 times, learn to drive your car, and put your money into more productive mods.

[4AGTE]

Dr-x have i got bad news for you. Assumption is the mother off all F&^% ups!
You have no idea how much power i have or torque i have at all or the weight of my car.
Man you don’t even know my quarter mile times I can do!
For you to say that I need to learn to drive better mean you are assuming way too much and their for are looking like a fool.

Basically if I put on a lightened fly wheel it will move my torque curve at the wheels and possible help and push maximum torque up the power curve a little at the WHEELS their for possible being able to get more power to the track their for better quarter mile times.

The torque I have I can be at 100kph in 3rd put my foot down (no cultch needed) and wheels will spin. Now correct me if I’m wrong but that’s a F*&^ load of torque.

As for cars with more power well let me see Rohny Lim (Ignore my spelling) has a lightened fly wheel. Why did he do that? Also the speed factors N/A civic has one. If it slows quarter mile times down as you say WTF did they do it?

Any answers to that??

[kingcorolla]

Basically if I put on a lightened fly wheel it will move my torque curve at the wheels and possible help and push maximum torque up the power curve a little at the WHEELS their for possible being able to get more power to the track their for better quarter mile times.

did u just not view the argument that was just on your thread..???

lightnening your flywheel will only create lees inertia to absorb torque, and make more torque available in low gears, at W.O.T (wid open throtle) which will not help in your case.

but if u think that less rotating mass in your flywheel, is gonna give u extra traction, and shift your max torque figures higher in the rev range, then go for it

[4AGTE]

So why have Speedfactor and so forth lightened their fly wheels?
Have the people who have been arguing about this actually done it?

As i have actualy done this with a n/a 4age and i found that it lost torgue (not at the motor but at the wheels) and was very easy stall hence less torque(at the wheels).

Why is this?