aimed at redmist etc: What does a b16 have over a 4age??

[Grrrrrrr!]

From reading the regulations and what information i have been able to find i've come to the conclusion that the TRS engines are running standard hardware, just blueprinted and drysumped (possibly to prevent oil surge due to the expected cornering forces? or grenading oil pumps ).

Claimed horsepower is approx 200, which is consistent with the gains to be expected from the free flowing exhaust, intake and ECU.
remember that these motors would have been chosen to be reliable and cheap (relatively) for toyota to provide for the series.

[bluemaumau]

yea at the v8s i went and had a talk to the dudes, he told me they arnt allowd to do anything with those 2zzs. maybe clean the air filter.

and theyve been thru 3 engines(just this one guy) this season.!

[RomanV]

From reading the regulations and what information i have been able to find i've come to the conclusion that the TRS engines are running standard hardware, just blueprinted and drysumped (possibly to prevent oil surge due to the expected cornering forces? or grenading oil pumps ).

Claimed horsepower is approx 200, which is consistent with the gains to be expected from the free flowing exhaust, intake and ECU.
remember that these motors would have been chosen to be reliable and cheap (relatively) for toyota to provide for the series.

They run Motec ECUs, and IIRC are balanced and blueprinted etc by Lynn Rogers. IIRC they gained 15hp or so with the motec and balancing etc.


However I doubt that any modifications are allowed at the individual team level.

[Grrrrrrr!]

Correct, no mods, not even allowed to top up the oil between races..
Must run Specified oils and fuel yadda yadda yadda.

Pretty much if the rules dont say you can change it then you no touchy it

[Ebola_One]

So from that we can see. a b16a runs bigger valves, at higher/similar lift (on the high lobe) than a Formula Atlantic motor, just shorter duration to keep the power down in a useable revrange.. if it wasn't for the vtec system i wonder how driveable they would be down low?

They're pretty boggy down low on high-cam. (down low = ~3krpm)
Mind you, that can be due to a few different things affecting how the engine runs, for VTEC to work correctly you've got to have 60(?)psi of oil pressure, and down low that's a big hit to the oil supply for the rest of the engine.
It sounds awful too.

It's interesting that no one's comparing CR's between the engines, why's that?

B16A1 = 10.2:1
B16A2 = 10.4:1 (important to note, that this is for JDM engines, NZDM are 10.2 as are the B16A3's)
B18CR = ~11:1 (I'm not 100% sure if it's 11 or 11.5:1, no clue what vanilla B18C's are)

iirc, Black top 20v's are 11:1 CR, and Silver top's 10.4/5:1?
Do the 16v's make it into double figure CR's?

[sergei]

small port 16v 10.3:1

[pc]

Blue top (big port, 16v) 9.4:1

[AceSniper]

101.11kw vvt off
93.6kw vvt on

And that wasn't the best power run of the day either.
Blk top internally stock!

should dyno it again, see if the link made much dif to the sard

[Logan]

Well I got 131.9 hp out of my stock standard black top in DX. However in regard to the turning off and on of vvt, remember that the standard computer switching off vvt at hi rpm (can remember but around 6 something a rather) and would you dyno runs would prove why, saying you would want to switch around 6.3. Anyway, Ive got a set of tuned extractors and a link comp on the way, so will see what these little things do...

Good thread btw.

[escortman]

a little bit off topic
my blacktop has trd headgaskit i was told this will raise comp
how much higher will it be
and wen its in im goin to hav to run it constantly on 98 correct?

[Lanius]

You're going to run into detonation trouble with a higher CR than 11:1 on NZ pump gas

I would expect that the ECU will retard the timing on the engine should it sense any knocking, and you'll end up with poorer performance than you would have had with the standard HG

[skoty]

makes a superior engine in a disappointing line of cars.

Yeah fully agree, I mean why does Honda put decent motors like the B16A/B18C into absolute pieces of sh#t. Correct me if I'm wrong but arn't the only production RWD Hondas the S2000 & NSX?

...ahh well I just know I will never buy a Honda till the day I die

[Grrrrrrr!]

You're going to run into detonation trouble with a higher CR than 11:1 on NZ pump gas

I would expect that the ECU will retard the timing on the engine should it sense any knocking, and you'll end up with poorer performance than you would have had with the standard HG

Hmm, so a silvertop with 30thou off the head, TRD .8mm headgasket and a skimmed block should be fun.

[MetalupYoAss]

makes a superior engine in a disappointing line of cars.

Yeah fully agree, I mean why does Honda put decent motors like the B16A/B18C into absolute pieces of sh#t. Correct me if I'm wrong but arn't the only production RWD Hondas the S2000 & NSX?

...ahh well I just know I will never buy a Honda till the day I die

well toyota only made bluetop 4ages RWD the rest are all FWD aswell; everyone knows honda make the best hp/L NA engines, your stock b16 will beat your stock 4ag.. end of story

[Mr Revhead]

everyone knows honda make the best hp/L NA engines,

if you ever visit italy, expect to be greeted by some angry guys in red overalls

ok so, if the b16a is so much better, howcome hardly anyone uses them for racing?

the advantage of the b16a is vtec. when modding for racing, eg cams etc that advantage is negated..... and it would appear the 4age is the prefferd option for that.
go to a club race meet and count the 4ages, then count the honda engines....

[AE85coupe]

You're going to run into detonation trouble with a higher CR than 11:1 on NZ pump gas

I would expect that the ECU will retard the timing on the engine should it sense any knocking, and you'll end up with poorer performance than you would have had with the standard HG

My smallport is roughly 11.4:1 runs fine on 98, pinks a bit going up hill etc. on 96, but not too bad

been running it for about 5 weeks or so, no sign of detonation

[skoty]

makes a superior engine in a disappointing line of cars.

Yeah fully agree, I mean why does Honda put decent motors like the B16A/B18C into absolute pieces of sh#t. Correct me if I'm wrong but arn't the only production RWD Hondas the S2000 & NSX?

...ahh well I just know I will never buy a Honda till the day I die

well toyota only made bluetop 4ages RWD the rest are all FWD aswell; everyone knows honda make the best hp/L NA engines, your stock b16 will beat your stock 4ag.. end of story

Well its not just 4ages vs b16as... Toyota makes countless decent rwds to this day - supras/soarers/mr2s/mark11s/celsiors etc. What does Honda have to offer - not a whole lot unless your into your fwds...

[10k 20v]

I think revhead the main reason 4AGE's out number the hondur engines is the fact that they turn backwards!
So applications are numbered on that fact alone.
Not to mention many a tuner has modded a 4AGE so the wealth of knowledge to make them go well is readily available.
The cost of the later model Honda Vtec engine that do spin clockwise is still way above the $400 of a stock 16v 4a (eventhe silvertops are around the $600 mark) which makes them a performance bargin for racers.
I expect to see far more honda engines in use when the later clockwise spinning units become more affordable. Like the K20A.
220hp from a stock 2L makes some very reliable and cheap horse power.
They can be made to produce 250hp with some minorish work.

Don't get me wrong, i'm still a huge 4A fan, but when the price of a type R civic is getting so close to the 10k mark it makes it hard to beat for bang for buck, mainly due to the fact that you bolt on some slicks and go racing. over 1G cornering from the factory!

[Grrrrrrr!]

You take a k20 powered civic, i'll have me one of these...

I'll be waiting in the pits for ya when you've finished dawdling around on the track

[fuel]

I've been reading this post as more posts are posted. I find myself constantly learning something new.

Lets say I have engine xyz. It has a displacement of 1755cc, bore of 80.6mm and stroke of 86mm. Comp ratio is 9.5:1 but lets make it 10:1 for ease here.

It's a OHC 8V job, with a 42mm inlet valve, and a 34mm exhaust valve, with roller rockers and hydraulic lash adjusters. The rod length is 153.6mm. Typical cast iron block with alloy cylinder head. Unfortunately this engine does not have a DOHC 16V cylinder head available. It puts out around 72kW@5500rpm and 144Nm@3500rpm in stock form.

What I want to know is, does this engine sound like it's running at its full potential? Or could there be a bit more power extracted from it, going by the figures above?

It's a *cough* Mitsi 4G37 *cough* engine if anyone wanted to know.

Cheers.