Fuelstar

[Mr Revhead]

if it worked, youd find them on toyota hybrids, they have a large enough quantity of scale to make it work, and its exactly the thing they would want. also so would honda with their LEVs

[Leon]

[nods]

If your Toyota 12345 could pull down 15% better fuel economy than the Honda 12345 (all other things equal) then the potential sales advantage to fleet purchases alone would be enormous.

If your petrol bill for your fleet of cars could be dropped by a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year ...

Want to bet that some (mostly) tin balls in an inline can would cost Toyota ever so slightly less than $300 each? Hell, I'd take that bet.

[Stealer Of Souls]

The motoring industry isn't always the leading edge... And don't always apply all the rules.

The honda insight hybrid has a cd of 0.25 and a small frontal area. It is arguably the worlds most frugal car. But it was only built for a short time and was only released in japan. Why aren't all cars running around with a cd of less than 0.3 these days? Has aerodynamics become unimportant?

Small capacity turboed motors are generally more efficent than an equivalent power output larger capacity NA motor. But we aren't all cruising around with 1L turbos.

Electric water pumps have been on the market for a number of years now. Some have been bad, others better. The Gen 2 Davies Craig EWP is a good product. I've had no problems with my one (over one year running now). However only just now are manufacturers starting to get in on that act.
BMW Electric water pump
Theoretically electric water pumps are far superior to mechanical pumps.

The Wankel Rotary engine. Was shunned by all except Mazda (who by all accounts considered dumping it to until it proved more popular than they'd expected). And look at just how good they have gotten. High output, small package, uncomplicated. Exactly what you want in a powerplant. And don't nag about the fuel use. Power output is by in large dependant only on the amount of fuel and air you stuff in the motor. So when compared to a similar output motor the old rotor isn't all that bad.

And on the more local/diy front.
Blue top big port head has now been superceded by the smallport head for pretty much all applications of the 16V 4AGE, despite people originally always stating that the big port was the way to go, especially for boosted engines.


As for the cost of producing something like fuelstars. I'm pretty sure toyota could produce each unit for less than $100 per unit. But the machine to produce them could cost millions. And then to ensure it can manufacture the quantities required it would most likely be only able to produce a limited size of unit. So for the vehicels which would require another larger machine, there's another few million. And that's without considering the real estate required to house the machine, and the final product (can't afford to run short). And then there's the maintenance and quality control. They'll have to "buy" the rights to manufacture them unless they wanna spend potentially millions in R&D to formulate their own (which would undoubtedly work better than fuelstar's).
And to top this all off. Everyone is currently on the trend of trying to phase petrol out as the primary fuel of choice...

[Scotty]

Your talking about millions like they matter to toyota

If it works they would have been used by at least one of the car companys by now. End of story.

[TRD Man]

Your talking about millions like they matter to toyota

Millions matter very much to Toyota, just as they do to any other company. As do the words 'core business'.

Despite their size they can be surprisingly frugal. And not at all surprisingly - focussed.

The fact that you are unaware of a manufacturer using this item is not testimony to it not performing.

I've never used one so I don't make any claim one way or another however I can remember when these things hit the market about 20 years ago. I was in Australia at the time and there were many reports of their effectiveness. In fact the guy next door had one installed in his Mk4 Cortina. He raved about it.

So maybe it's a case of 'don't knock it till you've tried it'.

[sergei]

BTW why do you think "Theoretically electric water pumps are far superior to mechanical pumps. "? The alternator runs of the belt as normal mechanical waterpump does. Plus you get electrical losses (3 phase AC->12DC, cable loss - due to substantial current at 12V, electric motor loss, 12V is not the most efficient voltage to run electric motors at.)
Rotors will never be more efficient than same era/technology piston engines, as internally rotors have high surface area, which is really important for fuel efficiency as the fuel left on the walls is the wasted fuel.
Your argument against the drag efficiency of honda and other hybrid cars, they were designed for city traffic stop-go, and at 30kph it does not matter if it has cd of 0.25 or 0.33...
While you are right about small capacity turbo engines, they are some what inherently unreliable. And the big engines you are talking about are usually of American origin - on which I don't really have high opinion (in other words all those pushrod V8s are crap, I don't care if they have 600Hp or whatever out of that capacity it is not really achivment).

[Stealer Of Souls]

BTW why do you think "Theoretically electric water pumps are far superior to mechanical pumps. "? The alternator runs of the belt as normal mechanical waterpump does. Plus you get electrical losses (3 phase AC->12DC, cable loss - due to substantial current at 12V, electric motor loss, 12V is not the most efficient voltage to run electric motors at.)

While it's true the double conversion to run the pump is less efficient.
1) The pump design of the electric pump is better, simply because it is remotely mounted and size/shape are less of a restriction. The EWP impeller is a more efficient design than most factory water pumps.
The EWP is easily capable of pumping far in excess of 80L/min with zero outlet restriction (pump straight out of the outlet into air) at 12V. By all accounts they have little trouble flowing 80L/min against a system pressure of 1 bar @ 14.5V.
2) Factory water pumps are notorious of pumping the water far more than is necessary. Especially at high RPM. Some factory pumps have been anecdotally referred to as beaters at the higher rpm ranges, simply beating the water around the housing instead of push the water through the system. The EWP (with electronic controller) is controlled to flow sufficient water to keep the engine at a more constant temperature. A more constant temperature is better for efficency. Also the temperature control is adjustable, warmer for better economy, cooler for better performance.
3) The DC EWP is rated at 6A @14V, that's less than 90W. Including all the conversion losses (approximately double conversion efficiency is approx 80%) that's around 110W load at the alternator. On a small engine that doesn't make much difference, but on a big engine the waterpump load can (supposedly) easily exceed 1kW at high rpm. I can't voucher for that. But I know that my EWP running direct wired to the battery does very litte to the load on the alternator. Can barely notice the difference even at idle. I will measure the load if people want proof of load.

Rotors will never be more efficient than same era/technology piston engines, as internally rotors have high surface area, which is really important for fuel efficiency as the fuel left on the walls is the wasted fuel.

Oranges with oranges please. The piston engine has had probably had about 10 times the time and money spent on developing it. The only people who have developed the rotary is Mazda. And yet EVERY car complany builds, and develops the reciprocating piston engine. Forumla one teams alone have spent millions developing their engines. And I would hazard to say that a fair proportion of that development technology engines up in production engines.
if the rotary have that much spent on it who knows what it could do.
And also, remember to compare an engines with a comparable output power. That is the rotary's main forte, high specific output from a low operating volume.

Your argument against the drag efficiency of honda and other hybrid cars, they were designed for city traffic stop-go, and at 30kph it does not matter if it has cd of 0.25 or 0.33...

Fair enough for the hybrids. But look at all the other cars out there. How many are even close to a cd of .25? Car's touted as family touring sedans have cds in the range of .33-.38 and they are meant to be taken down country for the holidays. While it's true they're not pushing 200kph, but at 100kph aerodynamics start to play a part.

While you are right about small capacity turbo engines, they are some what inherently unreliable. And the big engines you are talking about are usually of American origin - on which I don't really have high opinion (in other words all those pushrod V8s are crap, I don't care if they have 600Hp or whatever out of that capacity it is not really achivment).

I agree. Although I still say, like the rotary, the turbo engine is only now getting serious money spent on R&D. If half of the money spent on engine development over the past 15 years was spent on soley on small turbo engines the small turbo engine would probably be quite reliable now.

[Mr Revhead]

theres also the thermal inefficiencay of the rotor, caused by the large surface area, and the operating voloume of the rotor is twice the size rotor fans say it is

basic fact, a rotory engine is not as efficiant as a piston engine. been proven many times by ppl such as gordan murray, mercedes, gm etc etc

[sergei]

The most efficient internal combustion engine is a gas turbine. The only problem it is only efficient in big sizes (as the rotor speed go down as well as relative tolerances are better). Imagine having turbine powered car with hybrid system (as it is the most efficent way to transfer power from something that rotates at >50000rpm). You can run it on diesel with efficiences up to 50% (compare ~25% on piston engines)...

[Stealer Of Souls]

basic fact, a rotory engine is not as efficiant as a piston engine. been proven many times by ppl such as gordan murray, mercedes, gm etc etc

Got any references?

The lack of turbine/hybrid powered cars leads to another point about the motoring industry.

One of the primary deciders on new/different technology is ...
"Legacy"
12V car systems are legacy from days long gone. We should have shifted to 24V (or higher) a long time ago.
Oil based products as fuels. We should have moved to alternative energy forms a long time ago (isn't hindsight wonderful).
Filament lamps. Old hat, why isn't everything LED already?

[Mr Revhead]

references? just look everywhere....

[sergei]

LED is not the most efficient or robust technology. HID is the right direction. LED is good for matrix single colour lights (stop, turn, traffic lights etc -> generally displays not lighting). White LED is not really white. The problem with LED that it very temperature dependant. Back of it should be cooled while front of it should be warmed. The brightness/efficience is highly temperature dependant.

The problem with gas turbine powered cars is that the turbine itself is highly dependant on maintanance, mistreatment leads to catastrophic results. It requires lots of sub system to make it run (although compare to modern car it is not very bad). Noise is also a problem, you don't want to have over 120db from inlet on the full boost (well at least other people don't want it).
Gas turbine is very good towards fuel choice. You could run it on anything that is liquid/gas and burns. BTW I'm talking about turbo shaft engine not thrust propelled. Turbine (or secondary turbine) shaft rotating generator which through voltage convertor/regulator powers electric motors in the wheels.

[Mr Revhead]

saved yaself with the last point....
i was guna point out "lag" apply throttle and theres a lag between that and power raching wheels, mega turbo lag! as rover found out when they played around with them

but by using a turbine to drive an electrical generator, that would work
just look at trains and ships

[Stealer Of Souls]

LED is not the most efficient or robust technology. HID is the right direction. LED is good for matrix single colour lights (stop, turn, traffic lights etc -> generally displays not lighting). White LED is not really white. The problem with LED that it very temperature dependant. Back of it should be cooled while front of it should be warmed. The brightness/efficience is highly temperature dependant.

Better be careful what you say. The newest generation of LEDs have lumen outputs that equal or better any traditional per watt... Of course the low total wattage is a bit of an issue...
Yep, I agree, white is not really white. BUT... LEDs are being used in streetlighting now... SO watch this space I suppose.
HID is a step in the right direction... But the HV ballasts are a bit of a pain.

The problem with gas turbine powered cars is that the turbine itself is highly dependant on maintanance, mistreatment leads to catastrophic results. .... Turbine (or secondary turbine) shaft rotating generator which through voltage convertor/regulator powers electric motors in the wheels.

Once again, I wonder what could be done if the same amount of R&D had been spent on gas turbine generators/compact electric drive systems as has been on the internal combustion engine.


Now this thread has really gotten off track...
It was about fuelstar, and how people seemed to like bagging something they hadn't tried, and had no real scientific evidence to back up either way. Except that I provided something which indicates it is possible that microscope (or clustered nanoscopic) sized metallic particles could be used to produce combustion, and therefore p-o-s-s-i-b-l-y enhance petrol based combustion.

[Leon]

you might p-o-s-s-i-b-l-y be flatting with Elvis too.

Most people would suggest that this also might need evidence other than that provided by you (or the Fuelstar company) before spending $300 to fly down to check.

[neon_spork]

The most efficient internal combustion engine is a gas turbine. The only problem it is only efficient in big sizes (as the rotor speed go down as well as relative tolerances are better). Imagine having turbine powered car with hybrid system (as it is the most efficent way to transfer power from something that rotates at >50000rpm). You can run it on diesel with efficiences up to 50% (compare ~25% on piston engines)...

I think you will find the most efficient internal combustion engines are large scale reciprocating diesel engines. With efficiencies of up around 60% being achieved. Gas turbines with regeneration are getting fairly good efficiencies these days and have other advantages, like have lower maintainance requirements and producing high temperature exhaust that can be used for heating or cooling (CHP or cogeneration).

[TRDmod]

Here is my problem guys

reading your thread, i value your EXPERIENCED opinion usually, but in this case, it does not look like anyone has done a test on the dyno wether or not this works.

Yes as a placebo, it might work for economy but power gains. its suppose to work too.

I spoke to the guy, and believe me i am a sceptic too!
but there is a money back guarantee, and i asked what the conditions were, he said

"strap it on, test it, if you are not satisfied with the power gains, i will give all your money back" GUARANTEED, apart from the labour that it invovles, its a guarantee!!

Ok, he told me you would get guaranteed power gain, he said roughly 8-10 percent, now, my car is 206 ATW with out the front mount lets do a round 210... 10% = 21 extra KW at the wheels, not for 430 dollars plus install, thats a pretty good gain.

that would make my car gaining 35% power from start of myu modification stage.
and thast 430.

everyone is bagging it but all the test you see, (i searched them too) says fuel savings, now F*ck fuel savings i want POWEr, and he guarantees it or money back, so... whats there to lose...

I WILL GET ONE
and take my car to the dyno, if there is no power gain, i will post up a thread saying "fuel star a fraud" and we can continue to biatch at this product:)

i will be the guinea pig here guys:D
if it works, i will recommend it....

[TRDmod]

I remember that whenthe car first came out, people said it was the work of the devil.... now look at us, if it wasnt for cars, we would be drag racing horses and mules... maybe ostriches if you are from africa, and emus in australia... or road runner birds for the really really small people

when something like this comes out it gtes shunned because its another thing you buy,

Hydrogen fuel cells and Hydrogen fuel.

water powered cars... all going to come out soon, and 10 years ago, it was the laughing stock of the world.

Toyota has made the first WATER POWER car. you literally put tap water in it, its like a combustion engine but it burns hydrogen just like petrol, now... rigth now this is 2 million dollars but, imagine in 10 years time, ... this could be what you are racing about, you fill up at home instead of petrols tations, or fill up at WATER STATIONS wtih additives in the water to make it more powerful...

see, lets me open minded, TRy sushi if you always shunned it, TRY sashimi, if the japs make such good cars as toyota, im sure they make good food too:D

[sergei]

One problem: you cannot burn water. It is already "burned". It takes more energy to break water into hydrogen and oxygene then energy released when both of them combine. Have you heard of entropy?

[TRDmod]

gonna be honest with ya, i aint a academic.
i

yes i know, but of vcourse they did it somehow, and its viable, i mean even if your car was 4tons becaue you need so much water... that would still be worth it..

thats not the arguament here, its the fuel star, that was there as a extra babble cos i was bored:D