It continues. 4age vs. b16a

[regamaster]

it depends though.

once you got boosted in a honda, its fairly hard to contain traction and put power to the ground, in saying that, once you do have a fair idea of how to control the VTEC turbo and get it down to the ground, there are some very quick times to be had down the 1/4.

there are some vtec turbo b16a's running forgies etc, but due to the lack of traction stuck in the 13's, maybe low 13's, when nicely modded N/A ITR's are doing higher 13's, around 13.7's.

there is also crazy standard blocked turbo B16A's doing 12's, and also a B18BT 1800 dohc non vtec turbo integra without forgies doing high 12's also.

[Akane]

it makes the same power as a lot of b18 turbo setups, ive had a best of 218kw atw.A B series with a decent turbo+ecu would make around the same power @ 10-12psi where i require 20psi due to the difference in compression.

No, no and NO.
Not a dig at you flygt4 but a lot of kiddies always say "I makez mad powahs with teh t3/t4 at 25psi au! mad vtax!"

All this PSI talk makes me want to hurt myself (and then hurt you).

Vtax engines make more power at the same "PSI" level is due to their high flowing head, their lift and valve area is HUGE comapred to 4AGE's and the like, hence less restrictions, flowing more air, and the boost gauge registers less boost.

Don't talk in PSI unless we're comparing identical setups, please talk in lbs/min.

My very uneducated and pixel-mechanic like guess is that most vtax turbo engines are tuned with loads of fuel and a lot of timing retard to combat detonation, they're OK engines but physics is physics, if the static compression ratio is sky high, you will get detonation. Dump heaps of fuel to compensate is what most of them do. Try get a 1.8 vtax to flow 35lb/min of air and run 12.5:1 with stock internals then we'll talk.

[solitaire]

No, no and NO.

All this PSI talk makes me want to hurt myself (and then hurt you).

Vtax engines make more power at the same "PSI" level is due to their high flowing head, their lift and valve area is HUGE comapred to 4AGE's and the like, hence less restrictions, flowing more air, and the boost gauge registers less boost.

Don't talk in PSI unless we're comparing identical setups, please talk in lbs/min.

My very uneducated and pixel-mechanic like guess is that most vtax turbo engines are tuned with loads of fuel and a lot of timing retard to combat detonation, they're OK engines but physics is physics, if the static compression ratio is sky high, you will get detonation. Dump heaps of fuel to compensate is what most of them do. Try get a 1.8 vtax to flow 35lb/min of air and run 12.5:1 with stock internals then we'll talk.

Akane i think i love you

[Caveman]

it makes the same power as a lot of b18 turbo setups, ive had a best of 218kw atw.A B series with a decent turbo+ecu would make around the same power @ 10-12psi where i require 20psi due to the difference in compression.

No, no and NO.
Not a dig at you flygt4 but a lot of kiddies always say "I makez mad powahs with teh t3/t4 at 25psi au! mad vtax!"

All this PSI talk makes me want to hurt myself (and then hurt you).

Vtax engines make more power at the same "PSI" level is due to their high flowing head, their lift and valve area is HUGE comapred to 4AGE's and the like, hence less restrictions, flowing more air, and the boost gauge registers less boost.

Don't talk in PSI unless we're comparing identical setups, please talk in lbs/min.

My very uneducated and pixel-mechanic like guess is that most vtax turbo engines are tuned with loads of fuel and a lot of timing retard to combat detonation, they're OK engines but physics is physics, if the static compression ratio is sky high, you will get detonation. Dump heaps of fuel to compensate is what most of them do. Try get a 1.8 vtax to flow 35lb/min of air and run 12.5:1 with stock internals then we'll talk.

I agree I was going to comment on flygt4 as well...

vtec turbo may have low boost but mass flow is just as much as a 4age running high boost, and mass flow is what gives you your power. The reason they flow so much is when vtec goes onto high lobe it hold the valves open much longer and much more lift than 4age.

b16's can still be equiped with big turbos, however setting a wastegate to 15psi on it would be like free boosting on a 4age (well maybe not that bad, but it would be insane)

In the end matt dunn is right its all the other bits you use which will make a large difference. manifolds, intercooling, fuel system, ignition...

[flygt4]

it makes the same power as a lot of b18 turbo setups, ive had a best of 218kw atw.A B series with a decent turbo+ecu would make around the same power @ 10-12psi where i require 20psi due to the difference in compression.

No, no and NO.
Not a dig at you flygt4 but a lot of kiddies always say "I makez mad powahs with teh t3/t4 at 25psi au! mad vtax!"

All this PSI talk makes me want to hurt myself (and then hurt you).

Vtax engines make more power at the same "PSI" level is due to their high flowing head, their lift and valve area is HUGE comapred to 4AGE's and the like, hence less restrictions, flowing more air, and the boost gauge registers less boost.

Don't talk in PSI unless we're comparing identical setups, please talk in lbs/min.

My very uneducated and pixel-mechanic like guess is that most vtax turbo engines are tuned with loads of fuel and a lot of timing retard to combat detonation, they're OK engines but physics is physics, if the static compression ratio is sky high, you will get detonation. Dump heaps of fuel to compensate is what most of them do. Try get a 1.8 vtax to flow 35lb/min of air and run 12.5:1 with stock internals then we'll talk.

haha yeah i know what you mean akane , the psi i quoted there was indicative only of the medium-sized turbos used on most of the moderate setups and seem to be a rough average from most of the setups i have seen running with fairly stock heads etc
you could surely use a much larger turbo that flows more lb/min,or work the head to flow much more lb/min but it wouldnt be usable and still fit the "reasonably" standard engine setup i was using as an example.

oh and i do agree that the honda head is a huge factor as well,and is signifcantly better but tis all been covered before last time this topic was raised.

[vvega]

its not just teh head its the massive cam they run as well

.......

put some 302' cams in your car flygt4 and then see how you go

[Paulio]

so basically the 4agte is a gonner next to a vtec (if they've both had similar shit done), correct..?

I'm just thinking something like this (not cheap):

"412hp at the wheels @ 16psi"

from an 1800 toyota turbo engine mwahaha. and see what that's like compared to a honda 1800 with those fancy letters and stuff.

[AJz]

just a stab in the dark here, but you dont like hondas do you

i can see the thread going downhill already, sooooooooooooo

as a wise man on TS once said

"more boost, more bishes"

"no boost, no bishes"

[solitaire]

I think its like the different revisions of 3sgte.... From the begining the later gens are more powerfull... once you start throwing a little money at them the playing field is essentially level... Obviously not quite as level though.

[MikeMan]

Just to claifiy the MIVEC system is almost an exact copy of Honda's VTEC system with very similar operation and design but different focus in cam profiles.

Honda use a high speed and a very high speed type profile on a B16A VTEC so the "Low" cam starts working well at 3.5-3.7K and VTEC swaps at ~5.5K IIRC.

The MIVEC 4G92 has a "Low" cam that is strong from ~2800-5000 and swaps to the "High" cam at 5200rpm and that pulls to 8K+.

[vvega]

to put a b16a and a 4age up aplles for apples
you would have to....

for teh 4age
put some large cams into a 4age
get a ecu that will let you run the large cams
skim the head to give it good compression.......

for teh b16a
leave it how honda made it


you cant compare a motor that comes out with factory large cams and a ecu tuned to it
to a motor that dosent have these things

in stock form the 4age gets eaten
but when you mod them up its all down to what you do
both have teh potential for some very serious hp
there have have been race gas 4ages making in exccees of 700 hp
bob norwood ran one in a destroked form in a sw20 and was getting over 600 hp


v

[flygt4]

yeah thats pretty much it wayne. about the only thing they really share is the fact they are both 1.6L in displacement

[Lith]

Agreed. Sortof why I was inclined to say why bother? If you start modding them to the nTH degree to match or surpass the others strengths while retaining or improving its own advantages then you end up in a situation where its just a fully potent 1600cc and instead of comparing it with a stock 1600 - you are comparing it with other worked motors.

Getting a stock 4AGE and camming/porting/raising the compression on it and then making more power than a stock B16A would hardly be proving anything other than the fact that you can make more power by spending money.

[vvega]

Agreed. Sortof why I was inclined to say why bother? If you start modding them to the nTH degree to match or surpass the others strengths while retaining or improving its own advantages then you end up in a situation where its just a fully potent 1600cc and instead of comparing it with a stock 1600 - you are comparing it with other worked motors.

Getting a stock 4AGE and camming/porting/raising the compression on it and then making more power than a stock B16A would hardly be proving anything other than the fact that you can make more power by spending money.

its a pointless argurement

as a stock motor the b16 has the advantage because its a technically superiour engine

what i ment lith was that if you brought the 4age up to the same level in
engine spec's as a vtec the differance would be minimal..nothing more


the b16a IS a FACTORY worked engine
more so when it comes in a type R package

in fact its no diffenet to comparing a b16a to a atlantic engine

v

[Dragger_Dan]

there are some vtec turbo b16a's running forgies etc, but due to the lack of traction stuck in the 13's, maybe low 13's, when nicely modded N/A ITR's are doing higher 13's, around 13.7's.

there is also crazy standard blocked turbo B16A's doing 12's, and also a B18BT 1800 dohc non vtec turbo integra without forgies doing high 12's also.

Yeah, and there's also a turbo b18 that does a 9.88 sec. Traction, like power, is just how much money and time you're willing to spend on it. However to stay with street cars over in the states they have some street legal turbo integras and civics that can do high 10s.

[[b|indsp0tt]]

My boss's old integra was running a Blox manifold with rebuilt r32 skyline turbo,made 180kW @ the wheels @ 8psi.This was on a b18b (1.8ltr DOHC non vtec),these motor's are alot better for turboing as they have a lower compression (9.6:1) from what I remember.

My older brother was making around 220-230hp on his first turbo b16a setup with only 4-5psi,but is looking for around the 270hp mark with his new setup

Here's his build thread if anyone's interested:

http://nzhondas.com/phpBB2/1-vtu58871.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[EVLGTZ]

My boss's old integra was running a Blox manifold with rebuilt r32 skyline turbo,made 180kW @ the wheels @ 8psi.This was on a b18b (1.8ltr DOHC non vtec),these motor's are alot better for turboing as they have a lower compression (9.6:1) from what I remember.

That was my mates old car before it was sold to your boss. Very basic setup with good power from a non-vtec motor.

[[b|indsp0tt]]

My boss's old integra was running a Blox manifold with rebuilt r32 skyline turbo,made 180kW @ the wheels @ 8psi.This was on a b18b (1.8ltr DOHC non vtec),these motor's are alot better for turboing as they have a lower compression (9.6:1) from what I remember.

That was my mates old car before it was sold to your boss. Very basic setup with good power from a non-vtec motor.

Yeah it's been sold again,the new owner had it dyno'd recently,was running rather rich,just needs a decent tune and it'll make 200kW.

[Chickenman]

Apples for apples the Honda zc (si civic/crx) is much closer to the 4age in terms of development (up until Toyota started using VVT).

[blackie]

the b16a IS a FACTORY worked engine

in fact its no diffenet to comparing a b16a to a atlantic engine

v

thats a bit excessive isnt it...