3sgte (ST185) Knock in top of engine on Cold startup

[Norty]

Haha thats why i double check with you guys.

Sounds like its coming from under the rocker cover, i have given a few mechanics a listen and they all reckon its under the rocker cover, like a lifter or cam bearing, i think its a bearing under the rocker cover myself "as expressed in video"

here is another video, you can really hear it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_dmL4rtX4M

[Norty]

Just an update Post really

Did a check last night with a screwdriver to see if i can hear where the sound is coming from.

Sounds like exhaust cam where number 1 piston is, so tomorrow will take off rocker cover and will post back what i find.

[Akane]

chances are you're not gonna find much, but keep us posted, take pics if you could.

[RS13]

That second video definitely sounds like a sad bigend.. hmm. I'd pull the sump off and check for play. My 4AGE used to 'knock' on startup, but it was nowhere near as bad as that, more a valve-train rattle until the oil pressure came up.

[Norty]

Yeah, i need to take off rocker cover anyway to recheck head from when it was rebuilt.

I hope its not big end but if we find nothing then the sump will be next to be pulled off. I think we had an idea of that anyway to replace the gasket.

I will take pictures for sure and post them too, will post back once this has been done

Cheers Guys

[Norty]

Well well well. Knock is gone, and it was the cambelt, bit loose and we tighten it up and the knock is gone totally. my mate said even tho we put a new tensioner on it has come loose, and he was told by the guy that trained him up that these engines can do this due to their design i am sure someone will disagree but hey my knock is GONE YAYAYAYAYYAYA


SO CHEERS YAYAYAYYAYAYAYA

Now for the new turbo mUahahahhahahahaha

[Norty]

Well well well. Knock is gone, and it was the cambelt, bit loose and we tighten it up and the knock is gone totally. my mate said even tho we put a new tensioner on it has come loose, and he was told by the guy that trained him up that these engines can do this due to their design i am sure someone will disagree but hey my knock is GONE YAYAYAYAYYAYA


SO CHEERS YAYAYAYYAYAYAYA

Now for the new turbo mUahahahhahahahaha

Well knock has come back. Not impressed. Rang Repco Turns out there is another cambelt for a 3sgte (part T777) that has 1 less tooth.

Going to get this cambelt and give it a try. Just keeping this post updated for future toyspeeders that may encounter the same issue.

[fivebob]

Well knock has come back. Not impressed. Rang Repco Turns out there is another cambelt for a 3sgte (part T777) that has 1 less tooth.

Going to get this cambelt and give it a try. Just keeping this post updated for future toyspeeders that may encounter the same issue.

So you're going to use the wrong part to fix a problem (the 177 tooth belt is for the Gen 3 which has on less tooth on the oil pump). That's extremely rangi, and rather than fix the problem it might just disguise it until the actual faulty part fails

Unless the belt is faulty, the most likely cause is the tensioner or guide. Other possibility would be the water pump bearings, which will fail real quick if you use a short belt with too much tension.

Did you use Toyota parts when you did the cambelt and tensioner?

[Norty]

Considering all this is new none of this should be stuffed.

are there different tensioner's or idle pulley's?.

The tensioner has been removed and tested. all tested fine, checked BGB for all this.
Either its a wrong, tensioner, pulley or cambelt. the one currently on their has alot of slack.

Water pump is brand new. its all brand new.

gates cambelt.

Its like the tensioner's johnson wont stick out far enough in order to tension the belt.

[rollaholic]

personally i always buy my cambelts from toyota, its really true what they say about genuine parts - not to mention, for the price they charge (extremely reasonable) i dont know why you wouldnt.

[Ae92typeX]

Assuming its the correct one, ive never had issues with gates belts. did 100k on one and when went to replace had no obvious wear.

how much slack are you getting? (measured either belt deflection or tension on belt you can share?)

[Norty]

personally i always buy my cambelts from toyota, its really true what they say about genuine parts - not to mention, for the price they charge (extremely reasonable) i dont know why you wouldnt.

how much is a cambelt from them? my gates was $55 besides gates are really good belts, they have alot of history. never had an issue with them before i run one on my GTZ.

who makes the toyota cambelts?

[Norty]

Assuming its the correct one, ive never had issues with gates belts. did 100k on one and when went to replace had no obvious wear.

how much slack are you getting? (measured either belt deflection or tension on belt you can share?)

Well lets put it this way, the tensioner has its pee pee fully out and the slack on the belt would be in my non technical terms about 5mm slack, this weekend when we take off the belt i can take a video of the slack and post on youtube.

We have tested the tensioner, using the tests in the celica BGB.

unless their is another tensioner for this engine or idler pulley then i can only look at this other cambelt with one less tooth.

[fivebob]

personally i always buy my cambelts from toyota, its really true what they say about genuine parts - not to mention, for the price they charge (extremely reasonable) i dont know why you wouldnt.

how much is a cambelt from them? my gates was $55 besides gates are really good belts, they have alot of history. never had an issue with them before i run one on my GTZ.

Last time I saw it was lot cheaper than $55, email Mr Revhead for a price.

[fivebob]

Assuming its the correct one, ive never had issues with gates belts. did 100k on one and when went to replace had no obvious wear.

how much slack are you getting? (measured either belt deflection or tension on belt you can share?)

Well lets put it this way, the tensioner has its pee pee fully out and the slack on the belt would be in my non technical terms about 5mm slack, this weekend when we take off the belt i can take a video of the slack and post on youtube.

We have tested the tensioner, using the tests in the celica BGB.

unless their is another tensioner for this engine or idler pulley then i can only look at this other cambelt with one less tooth.

By the sounds of this you either have the wrong belt or somethings not correctly assembled.

What's the clearance between the tensioner body and the idler pulley stopper?

[Norty]

Not too sure what the distance was, my mate who rebuilt the engine for me was looking at that, i am was just a nurse in the whole thing

will give this new cambelt a go, will see what happens.

Basically the story with this car was, Head was warped so i got another head, new head was planed down and re shimmed etc.. all the things you are required to do, the cylinders in the block still has the bore marks in them, pistons where in awesome condition. Everything that needed replacing was replaced as i didn't want to have issues (go figure).

Everyone from ex toyota guys, race car people have looked at it in order to help with what the issues might be, its been a long 10 months to get to this point, after stressing out that it might be a big end bearing, my mate that built the engine asked his mentor and teacher in all things cars about it, he said it after listening to the noise that it was either a slack cambelt or faulty oil filter, I went to a Toyota oil filter only to find the sound remaining so we tried to see if the cambelt could be tighten, my mate did something with the pulley and the sound went away only to come back a day and a bit later, we then rang repco and ask if there was any other part other than the ones supplied, he said yes there was another cambelt listed for the engine with one less tooth. so here i am now, i can understand your concern of me screwing my engine, however we have tested the tensioner as per BGB etc.. and its the only thing we have left.

So yeah

anyhow here is a picture of under the rocker cover, on Saturday will get more pics and some vids if i can.

http://gtz.kicks-ass.net/Images/IMG_2148.jpg

[Norty]

Ok, well this really sucks now.

New Cam belt wont fit, so thats now down the toilet

Clearance between tensioner body and idler pulley is 2.5mm *fivebob*

tensioner rod measures 8.5mm when fully out.

someone suggested putting a smaller pulley on depending on what cam belt used.

The head has been shaved 30-40 thou and it has a thinner metal head gasket on it. about 1/2 a mil

If i could get a tensioner that had a bigger rod this would suss the issue. can i get a tensioner with a bigger rod like a black tensioner ?

http://gtz.kicks-ass.net/Images/IMG_2157.JPG

[fivebob]

Clearance between tensioner body and idler pulley is 2.5mm

That's well outside spec, it should be 1.8-2.2mm.

The head has been shaved 30-40 thou and it has a thinner metal head gasket on it. about 1/2 a mil

So you shaved 1mm off the head and then lowered it another 0.5mm, that's adding 3mm more slack to the belt. No wonder it's loose. I would suggest that the most sensible way to fix this is to use a thicker headgasket 1.5-2mm should solve the problem.

[Norty]

Clearance between tensioner body and idler pulley is 2.5mm

That's well outside spec, it should be 1.8-2.2mm.

The head has been shaved 30-40 thou and it has a thinner metal head gasket on it. about 1/2 a mil

So you shaved 1mm off the head and then lowered it another 0.5mm, that's adding 3mm more slack to the belt. No wonder it's loose. I would suggest that the most sensible way to fix this is to use a thicker headgasket 1.5-2mm should solve the problem.

Can i get a metal head gasket that is 1.5-2mm

its a big mission, mod road is looking good around about now, what about a smaller idle pulley? how small would i need from standard to fit a belt with 1 less tooth, i couldn't go bigger pulley as not enough room but i could go smaller yeah.

[fivebob]

Can i get a metal head gasket that is 1.5-2mm

Apexi make 1.5,1.8 & 2.1mm, HKS make a 1.6mm but it's very expensive (about $350+), Blitz also makes a 1.6mm one.

its a big mission, mod road is looking good around about now, what about a smaller idle pulley? how small would i need from standard to fit a belt with 1 less tooth, i couldn't go bigger pulley as not enough room but i could go smaller yeah.

Bad idea, puts more strain on the pulley bearing and the belt, which has to go through a tighter radius. Not sure what the tooth pitch is on the belt, but I'd guess it's around 6mm, so you need around 2-3mm smaller pulley.