Black Top 25% More Powerful?

[RevolutionStarlet89]

Im looking at getting a new car, it was a silver top levin, and is now a blacktop. From what ive herd if the new engine is 25% more powerful it needs to be certified, so does anyone know if a blakc top is 25% more powerful than a silver??? Cheers

[Celica RA45]

from both engines on motecs engine dyno 138hp for the silver top and 144 hp for the black top so 6 hp increase not 25 % increase

[Bling]

Different cylinder Head

blacktop head over silvertop head, so to be legal it needs a cert for that too.

All depends how legal you want to be at end of the day.

[fangsport]

Different cylinder Head

blacktop head over silvertop head, so to be legal it needs a cert for that too.

All depends how legal you want to be, but at end of the day.

same number of valves. same family of engine.

[Lith]

Black tops make almost as much as silvertops are claimed to make from factory - you'll be fine

Also, the "25% more than factory" thing - I think I'm the only person I know of to be pulled up on by the frikken rule at a WOF station

[matt dunn]

you'd be lucky if a wof inspector could tell the difference between a ST and a BT 20V. Apart from the colour of the cam covers etc which can be swapped between models easily, you need to know what you are looking for to tell the difference.

rather than me saying you could get away with no cert,
I actually belive that would be a genuine case of where no cert is necessary.
Same block, same mounts etc, same cc, and bugger all more power.

[Leon]

If you don't cert, and then crash the car. The insurance assesor might spot the conversion, at which case your heading towards the insurance company refusing your claim

[sergei]

If you don't cert, and then crash the car. The insurance assesor might spot the conversion, at which case your heading towards the insurance company refusing your claim

If you are converting silver top to black top, which is technically 100% bolt on, no modifications what so ever are required. I consider black top just a revised version of silver top. I doubt 90% of mechanics can even spot the difference (apart from cam colour, which is non issue as painted cam cover is not a mechanical modification). It is like saying that there is cert required for TVIS to Non TVIS head change in early 4AGE.

Basically certs are all about safety, if every thing OEM, bolt on and 99% identical, why there need for one? It is just like repair. Do you need cert if you are replacing silver top to silver top? What about silver top to face lift silver top?

[Bling]

It comes down to whats legal.

Sure you can do any mods you like to a car and hope to not get caught out if you have an accident. Changing engine included. I don't think the fact everything just bolts in will exempt you from any law. Fact of the matter is, (last time I read it anyway) different cylinder head = CERT. Its up to the person doing the conversion of course whether they get it certed or not.

Giving opinions is fine "I think you don't need a cert" is fine to say... if you paint the cover etc, but at least make it known that its a requirement to get it certed, but that you can hide the fact its a different engine.

Sergei, silvertop to blacktop is much like 2k to 4k, still needs cert, but I CHOSE to not bother and just grinded the 4k off my engine.

[Leon]

Basically certs are all about safety

I didn't mention safety ... I mentioned insurance companies looking for a way to not pay you.

[flygt4]

can you use a ST cover on the engine

[sergei]

Basically certs are all about safety

I didn't mention safety ... I mentioned insurance companies looking for a way to not pay you.

Oh, yeah, now I get it, these are the companies who thik 1.5 Turbo diesel Corsa is higher risk than 2.0 Prelude.

[Leon]

but its turboz with booossts, you'll KILL yourself in it when the vetaxes kick in.

[Dell'Orto]

It quite likely doesnt, BUT as Leon pointed out, insurance companies are weasels and will try anything to get out of paying. I'd call a local certifier and ask to be doubly sure, then if anything does happen you can refer the insurance scum back to the certifier.

[Distrb]

20% Power output only applies to modification of existing engines, not conversions.

as stated in The Low Volume Vehicle Standard Engine and Drivetrain Conversion document; Effective 1 Sept 2002

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/Engine&Drive-tr ... ions09.pdf

Engine Modifications that do not require certification.

A vehicle is not required to be certified to the Low Volume Vehicle Code provided that the safe performance tof the vehicle is not compromised, where the only modifications to the vehicle are those to the engine originally fitted to the vehicle by the vehicle manufacturer, that result in an increase of no more than 20% in an engine power output from the original vehicle manufacturers specifications

but the one that holds the answer is in fact this section:

Engine conversions that do not require certification

A vehicle is not required to be certified to the Low Volume Vehicle Code provided that the safe performance of the of the vehicle is not compromised, where the only modification to the vehicle is the fitting of an engine other than that fitted by the vehicle manufacturer and that the engine:

- Is of the same or less capacity or power output; and

- Is of the same configuration; and

- the fuel type is not changed from petrol to diesel or vice-versa; and

- has the same type of fuel induction system;

- has the same weight, location and centre of gravity; and

- Is of the same design and casting family of cylinder block and cylinder head(s)

Following that, because the blacktop is rated at higher power output, you require certification for your car to be legal to the letter of the written law.

So how much you wanna try weasel your way around the semantics of it all is up to you.

[d1 mule]

Black tops make almost as much as silvertops are claimed to make from factory - you'll be fine

Also, the "25% more than factory" thing - I think I'm the only person I know of to be pulled up on by the frikken rule at a WOF station

you got sulled up for 183 at the wheels thats pretty much standard,what a joke lol the wof guy musnt oh had a root for a while what a c**t

[sergei]

20% Power output only applies to modification of existing engines, not conversions.

as stated in The Low Volume Vehicle Standard Engine and Drivetrain Conversion document; Effective 1 Sept 2002

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/Engine&Drive-tr ... ions09.pdf

Engine Modifications that do not require certification.

A vehicle is not required to be certified to the Low Volume Vehicle Code provided that the safe performance tof the vehicle is not compromised, where the only modifications to the vehicle are those to the engine originally fitted to the vehicle by the vehicle manufacturer, that result in an increase of no more than 20% in an engine power output from the original vehicle manufacturers specifications

but the one that holds the answer is in fact this section:

Engine conversions that do not require certification

A vehicle is not required to be certified to the Low Volume Vehicle Code provided that the safe performance of the of the vehicle is not compromised, where the only modification to the vehicle is the fitting of an engine other than that fitted by the vehicle manufacturer and that the engine:

- Is of the same or less capacity or power output; and

- Is of the same configuration; and

- the fuel type is not changed from petrol to diesel or vice-versa; and

- has the same type of fuel induction system;

- has the same weight, location and centre of gravity; and

- Is of the same design and casting family of cylinder block and cylinder head(s)

Following that, because the blacktop is rated at higher power output, you require certification for your car to be legal to the letter of the written law.

So how much you wanna try weasel your way around the semantics of it all is up to you.

To the letter you say.
So what how far is modification?
Let see:
cams = modification
different intake manifold = modification
different pistons = modification
different con rods = modification
different cambelt parts = modification
different head = modification?
so at what point modificiation stops and become a transplant?
for example as most of the parts are interchangable you can have almost any combination of black top parts in silver top engine.
Theoretically you can swap bit by bit at a time untill you get black top with silver top covers.

[Distrb]

the fitting of an engine other than that fitted by the vehicle manufacturer and

that would be where it stops for mine...

again, like i said, you can argue the semantics as much as you want if you want to be truely difficult about it.

personally i'd be very suprised if you came across a wof inspector that would challenge you on the legalities of this conversion.

[Dell'Orto]

Black tops make almost as much as silvertops are claimed to make from factory - you'll be fine

Also, the "25% more than factory" thing - I think I'm the only person I know of to be pulled up on by the frikken rule at a WOF station

you got sulled up for 183 at the wheels thats pretty much standard,what a joke lol the wof guy musnt oh had a root for a while what a c**t

No, 183 was his standard output. The new shiny bits that made it fail a WOF ought to make a little bit more.

[diss7]

Section 4.3 wrote:
Engine conversions that do not require certification

A vehicle is not required to be certified to the Low Volume Vehicle Code provided that the safe performance of the of the vehicle is not compromised, where the only modification to the vehicle is the fitting of an engine other than that fitted by the vehicle manufacturer and that the engine:

- Is of the same or less capacity or power output; and

It doesn't require certification because of Toyota's over generous output claims.
Its not the rated power of the new engine, its the actual power.

If they did everything by the letter of the law and tested it, they would come up with something like.....

New engine is same displacement and 155hp at the flywheel.

Old engine according to Toyota is rated at 160hp.