Gull's new 98 Octane Biofuel

[barryogen]

I've been reading up on this fairly extensively over the last week, and I've found that over all it is going to make bugger all difference to 99% of cars.

Some may notice a small varience in performance, some up, some down depending on the state of tune that their car is currently in.

The reason for this is that petrol with 10% ethanol has a heap more oxygen than normal petrol, meaning that cars will run a bit leaner than they were before hand, which on a stock car is a good thing, as mostly they run a bit rich from factory(atleast in each one I've ever seen a test of). In tuned cars... it may mean you run a bit lean, which isn't good.

It will clean off carbon deposits inside the engine, and also inside the fuel system, meaning that you may have to change your fuel filter after changing to using E10 petrol as it may get clogged with higher amounts of carbon deposits than usual.

Other than that, no-one anywhere seems to have had a bad experience with 10% ethanol in petrol anywhere.

Yes it is more corrosive, but with only 10% it makes little to no difference to anything.

Yes it holds water, but again with only 10% it'll make bugger all difference unless you leave it sitting in the tank/fuel lines for quite some time.

After much reading I'm quite happy to use it in my car... when it becomes available here in Dunners.

[sergei]

In my opinion extra oxygen already bonded to Carbon/Hydrogen will not result in effect which are associated with leaner mixture, as when than oxygen breaks the bonds and makes new bonds, the nett result would be a (almost) no change of energy output, hence no detonation. Although it will fool the oxygen sensor into reading that the mixture is leaner.

[Adamal]

Although it will fool the oxygen sensor into reading that the mixture is leaner.

And in turn, richen the mixture?

[2jayzgte]

AVGAS AVGAS AVGAS bring back highly leaded enriched fuel...lol

You can't beat that Avgas smell my car runs better on it the car absolutely loves it ethanol fuel its a have AVGAS AVGAS AVGAS.At least you no the content of AVGAS is 100 plus RON not unlike all these BS RON ratings they have on the pumps at your local gas station 98 is more like 96 95 is more like 93 and so on please the oil companies are legalised robbers they may advertise certain things having a certain number but really they have been bending us over for years....

[deaf_rattle]

for a long time gulls 96 uses to be 97.5 octane.

i thought av gas was more like 110-120?

but yeah, gotta love that smell.

[sergei]

Although it will fool the oxygen sensor into reading that the mixture is leaner.

And in turn, richen the mixture?

Exactly right. So in theory your fuel economy will be poorer.

[fuel]

What about carburettored cars or early NZ-new fuel injected cars (ie AE82 GT, Cordia turbo) which don't have O2 sensors as at that time they still had leaded fuel?

[barryogen]

What about carburettored cars or early NZ-new fuel injected cars (ie AE82 GT, Cordia turbo) which don't have O2 sensors as at that time they still had leaded fuel?

From what I've read, carburettored cars will run on it, but shouldn't be run on it.

That bit on the first page of the thread might list early EFI cars... ring your manufacturer maybe?

[Grrrrrrr!]

In my opinion extra oxygen already bonded to Carbon/Hydrogen will not result in effect which are associated with leaner mixture, as when than oxygen breaks the bonds and makes new bonds, the nett result would be a (almost) no change of energy output, hence no detonation. Although it will fool the oxygen sensor into reading that the mixture is leaner.

Err, how do you fool an electro-chemical reaction? It wont be distracted by a nice set of legs

The O2 sensor will correctly read the amount of free oxygen in the exhaust gas stream, which be be higher when the engine is first run on bioethanol as it has a lower percentage of H & C available to bond to the oxygen in the intake charge.

Look at it another way.. for X amount of intake charge you get X amount of O2.. but when you add bioethanol you also add more Oxy with the fuel, which means there is more Oxy than the ecu expects and less HC with which to react it all. This results in some of the O2 going unused.

[magnazan]

Has anyone been running this yet? In particular in a GTT? TBH due to the fact that there aren't many Gull stations around where i am i'll just stick with ultimate.

[sergei]

In my opinion extra oxygen already bonded to Carbon/Hydrogen will not result in effect which are associated with leaner mixture, as when than oxygen breaks the bonds and makes new bonds, the nett result would be a (almost) no change of energy output, hence no detonation. Although it will fool the oxygen sensor into reading that the mixture is leaner.

Err, how do you fool an electro-chemical reaction? It wont be distracted by a nice set of legs

The O2 sensor will correctly read the amount of free oxygen in the exhaust gas stream, which be be higher when the engine is first run on bioethanol as it has a lower percentage of H & C available to bond to the oxygen in the intake charge.

Look at it another way.. for X amount of intake charge you get X amount of O2.. but when you add bioethanol you also add more Oxy with the fuel, which means there is more Oxy than the ecu expects and less HC with which to react it all. This results in some of the O2 going unused.

I chose bad wording: anyway the fuel mixture would result in higher fuel ratio just because ecu will compensate on extra oxygen from ethanol.

[Mr Revhead]

http://content.toyota.co.nz/toyota/_campaign/20070801_ethanol/toyota.html#Biofuels10


toyotas word on it


see point 11

[barryogen]

Handy to know that 3% is about all the difference it'll make on E10.

Somewhat weird though...
It would suggest that my car is fine with E3, with E5 I'd need to replace my fuel delivery system every 10 years or 100000kms, and E10 is a no-go... but the same model zze123 NZ New corolla is fine on it.

Have emailed Toyota about it... it seems a bit odd.

[Doriftering]

Somewhat weird though...
It would suggest that my car is fine with E3, with E5 I'd need to replace my fuel delivery system every 10 years or 100000kms, and E10 is a no-go... but the same model zze123 NZ New corolla is fine on it.

Have emailed Toyota about it... it seems a bit odd.

Its just the usual New car dealer thing. Its a used japanese import so its obviously the worst car in the world and your a bad evil person for buying it. Ive been running it a bit in my 1991 skyline and i haven't died yet and neither has my car.

[sergei]

I will through another broom stick into wheel spokes:
http://www.intota.com/docs/ethanol-pollution.asp

Octane (n-dodecane): C12H26 + 18.5 O2 → 12 CO2 + 13 H2O
18.5 x energy units.

Glucose via ethanol:
Glucose 2 C6H12O6 → 4 CO2 + 4 C2H5OH
Ethanol:4 C2H5OH + 12 O2 → 8 CO2 + 12 H2O
2 C6H12O6 + 12 O2 → 12 CO2 + 12 H2O
12.0 x energy units

[sergei]

I will through another broom stick into wheel spokes:
http://www.intota.com/docs/ethanol-pollution.asp

By now you may have heard of the economic questions regarding using corn for ethanol production, but less attention has been paid to the environmental impact of using ethanol as an alternative to gasoline. Is ethanol more of a pollutant than gasoline? Surprisingly, the science says yes.

According to our Expert, who holds a PhD in Biochemical Engineering, a Master’s degree in Chemical Engineering, and has over 40 years experience performing biotechnology, bioengineering, and bioprocess research, both ethanol and gasoline deliver the same amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) into the atmosphere per gallon consumed. However, when compared on a per mile driven basis, burning ethanol actually produces 54% more CO2 as global warming pollutant than gasoline due to the fact that ethanol has lower fuel efficiency.

For the science buffs out there, the energy production produced by burning materials is proportional to the molecules of oxygen used. Here are the chemical formulas for the energy produced by burning octane via gasoline and by burning glucose via ethanol.

Octane (n-dodecane): C12H26 + 18.5 O2 → 12 CO2 + 13 H2O
18.5 x energy units.

Glucose via ethanol:
Glucose 2 C6H12O6 → 4 CO2 + 4 C2H5OH
Ethanol:4 C2H5OH + 12 O2 → 8 CO2 + 12 H2O
2 C6H12O6 + 12 O2 → 12 CO2 + 12 H2O
12.0 x energy units

[barryogen]

You know that you will probably get no arguments ether way this a post like that Sergei... most if not all of us will not be able to comprehend WTF it actually says.

I understand the basic principal, but I guess it would depend on what the ethanol is being put in to replace...

Anyone know whats being taken out of the fuel and being replaced with Ethanol?

I understood that it was the benzines and other really nasty stuff that was being fazed out.

[sergei]

From what I gather it is just mixed with standard gas with anticorrosion additivies (which could be real nasties).

[toymachine]

I wonder if that this stage it's actually as much about emissions or making proper petrol last a bit longer?

[sergei]

I wonder if that this stage it's actually as much about emissions or making proper petrol last a bit longer?

It is just jumping on global warming bandwagon. Helen Clarck is building her green image for UN.