Petrol Price V Horsepower

[~SlideWays~]

Aftermarket ECUs are a downgrade.

Good for a wind up, you guys are easy.

Steve

Not another one of those are you?

[sergei]

Aftermarket ECUs are a downgrade.

Good for a wind up, you guys are easy.

Steve

Not another one of those are you?

Troll.

[Silent Knight]

Good for a wind up, you guys are easy.

Steve

Awesome, haven't heard that excuse to try and cover up stupidity in a long time!

[fivebob]

Good for a wind up, you guys are easy.

Steve

Awesome, haven't heard that excuse to try and cover up stupidity in a long time!

Yep, admitting to being a troll is a sure sign that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Heylin]

10km per litre \ 190KW (at engine), thats open road and not driving hard. Its been modified from stock (more boost, bigger turbo, new IC, pod, exhaust etc) and still gets the same economy as when I got 6 years ago.

Gotta love modern fuel injection systems my partners dad has a 2003 5.8 V8 Monaro and that gets 13-15 km per litre.

[Lith]

If your car is tuned properly then your mods won't increase the fuel consumption.

HAHAAHAH Yea right!

Please explain then how my supra now only manages 250km off 60L of fuel and when I bought it it was doing aroun 450km off 60L.

You're doing it wrong? How much power is your car making? I have around 280kw @ wheels and if I get 250km off 50litres I have been very very naughty for many of those 250km. I can get over 500km on the open road and most tanks last me around 350-400km to around 50litres - I guess thats 13l/100k for over 400hp when doing almost solely around town driving, or around 10l/100k.

[MAGN1T]

The best dyno tune is never the best tune for the road.

Likewise the best road tune never gets the best numbers on the dyno.

A dyno tune is pretty much 2 dimentional as in rpms/full throttle only/power.
It takes a lot of time for a proper tune, with part throttle conditions.
If you don't have an oxy sensor fitted you'll never get perfect economy.

I've always tuned on the road. Had to tweak it a bit on the dyno to get better numbers, then put it back the way it was because it didn't feel quite right on the road.
Last time I did a trip up north, admittedly a while back, coming back from Meremere, I filled at Huntley, got back to Lower Hutt without stopping for fuel. That's at a guess 580 or so Ks on 70 litres. That's on a car making a bit more than 300Kw 4WD at the hubs, but not a Toyota, no we weren't driving slowly either.

All it means is that anyone can call themselves a tuner without actually knowing a great deal of anything really. I'm NOT a tuner, just been "playing" for a long time.

Steve

[Lith]

The best dyno tune is never the best tune for the road.

Likewise the best road tune never gets the best numbers on the dyno.

A dyno tune is pretty much 2 dimentional as in rpms/full throttle only/power. It takes a lot of time for a proper tune, with part throttle conditions.

That's on a car making a bit more than 300Kw 4WD at the hubs, but not a Toyota, no we weren't driving slowly either.

Yeah my car has had quite a bit of time on the dyno and on the road getting tuned, unfortunately it really needs a retune as when it was tuned it was working around a variety of headache causing ignition related issues etc - I expect the car could get away with a reasonable amount more lean mixtures at the 5th gear/100kph rev range than it is currently running.

I am still REASONABLY content with the fuel useage of my car, if I throw a thicker headgasket and up the boost level by 4psi I should be able to make similar power to you (was running ~1bar for 280kw) there is no logical reason why I should end up with worse fuel economy when the low load zones of my map shouldn't have to be touched at all and if I scale my 500km from 52 litres up to 70litres worth of fuel, I should be looking at 670km worth of road eaten for that amount of fuel drank

[MAGN1T]

To add to that, any "pro" who tunes your car should really leave you with a means of monitoring both knock and AFR once it's finished.
That way you can fine tune it yourself, or at least get someone else to when needed, on the road too.
I'm not aware of any tuner who actually recomends fitting a Knocklink or an AFR gauge as standard practice, whether a NB or a WB. The only reason I can think or for the lack of recommendation is that it's "bad for business"

Steve

[Dell'Orto]

Possibly that, and wnating to cover there asses when some muppet has a crack at tuning their car and blows it up, then comes crying back to the original tuner.

[Adydas]

If your car is tuned properly then your mods won't increase the fuel consumption.

Steve

So beacuse my cars tuned by a tuner the fact its been tuned to run bigger injectors, bigger turbo etc it wont use more fuel?

My pocket begs to differ an argument on that, Or when you consider "mods" do you consider the following.

Exhast
Pod Filter
Head Unit
Sub
Amp
6x9s
BOV
FMIC

And not, the following bigger horsepower generating mods.

Aftermarket ecu
Aftermarket turbo
Aftermarket injectors etc

[Lith]

So beacuse my cars tuned by a tuner the fact its been tuned to run bigger injectors, bigger turbo etc it wont use more fuel?

Strictly speaking I'm not sure why bigger injectors, turbo etc should use more fuel if the car is tuned right but mine definitely does seem to use a little more fuel than with the stock turbo etc though I have work that needs to be done on one of my favorite engine speed areas.

Bigger cams is something which can really effect fuel economy around low rev operation - no matter how good the tuning is.

[Adydas]

I would have thought it would have to

If your useing 440cc injectors and maxing them out its using x fuel per x time, at its best tune. If you require more fueling for upgrades and start running 880cc injectors at x fuel per x time at its best time where both situations are minimum of 70% maxed out, The latter is surly going to be using "some" additonal fuel

Isnt it?

As far as im concerned ive done work to my car, been instructed to use 96 and i just expect it will use more gas. My vote supports the power triangle.

Power -- Cost -- Reliability

You can only have 2 of those.. and if you have more power it will cost not only in mods to get the power but also on going costs in higher fuel etc.

If you try cutting costs to get power you lose reliabilty, Makes sense go big power mods, and go cheap on the gas theres more chance its going to bust somthing..

At the end of the day, if my car costs more to be more powerfull im in support of it.. I couldnt imagine anyone been in a simlar position where they have done turbos, ecus etc and they want to get economy and use 91 gas etc its just madness.

A person cant honestly expect to make more power and retain economy..

[Dell'Orto]

As far as im concerned ive done work to my car, been instructed to use 96 and i just expect it will use more gas. My vote supports the power triangle.

OT, you're not actually using "96" are you?

[Flannelman]

"To make horsepower, work must be done"
burning more fuel makes more power. right?
As everyone reading, to a point. as, consider this.

91, burns faster, easyer to ignite, generaly regaded as cats p*ss.
95, slower burning, harder to ignite, good for making power.
98, slower buring still, harder again to ignite, great for making power.
100+ (the C rated racing gasolines) slowest burning, harder to ignite again and absolute best for making power.
Methanol, Ethanol. fast burn, easy to ignite, excelent power making fuel.
Diesel is slow burning, ignites easy and makes excelent bottom end torque

HOWEVER, which fuel is best? best for power or economy?

Any tuner starts with an engine and tries to make it as efficent as possible with what he has. a tuner cant change compression ratio, combustion chamber design, rod/stroke ratio, inlet path, outlet path, or for fuel economy, a ram air system.
There is no point building an engine with high boost or high compression, wild cams, massive ports, huge exhaust, and run it on 91. the fuel doesnt match the engine. sure, im confident that it can be done and not detonate. But the cost? bottom end torque would be useless on the high compression engine due to it being so retarded and the same goes for when boost arrives, the ignition would have to be retarded to stop detonation. then higher up? the overall power will be sad, due to the fuel. the tuner has only a few ways to stop detonation. timing, fuel, boost. change those and you change power and economy.
the other way? putting C113 race gas in the stock 4afe? no change to power. WHY? because nothing was changed to take advantage of the new fuel. Just as retarding timimg is nessassary for low octane fuel, a timing advance is needed to see a power increase for a high octane gas.

Tuning for part throttle, low load is very important. having a brilliant part throttle responce comes down to timing. the more advanced the timing the more brilliant the responce, and the cooler the engine runs too. (there are limits, so no one try and grab an extra 10 degrees advance)

Alcohol fuels make excelent power. besides the price why are they not used? because for Methanol to burn efficiently its air/fuel ratio is 6.5 to 1. petrol is 14.7 to 1. thats right, methanol needs over twice the volume of fuel than petrol, so no matter what the tuner does, methanol engines will always require twice the fuel. no good as a fuel for economy

What about diesel? slow burn rate, and (something i havent mentioned is) energy content. AND diesels run massive compression ratios (18-24 to 1) this lifts thermal effiency making them kings of torque and why they are used in trucks, boats and heavy machinery. they rev low, provide great torque and power. but they dont rev. with a torque band of 2000rpm and most redlining under 5k diesels are not preformance kings. and this is due to the burn rate. its SLOW.

So, the key to the best power/economy is match your fuel to your engine.
Then it can be TUNED properly to the engines best.

[Lith]

"To make horsepower, work must be done"
burning more fuel makes more power. right?
As everyone reading, to a point. as, consider this.

That last line vexes me.

But yeah, to make horsepower work must be done - strictly speaking one of the best ways to keep the economy up is to not use the extra horses We don't have that huge a range of fuel available for road cars so I'm not quite sure why you are going on about diesel etc etc.

Its pretty safe to say most people here have performance cars and the discussion is about the balance between outright power and economy from our toys. Odd are the options are BP 98, Mobil Synergy 8000 and Gull Force10. Ie, 98RON....