rod knock on fresh engine! + ae111 4agze conversion question

[Mr Revhead]

Yeah it is, but my point is a lot of people chase peak hp whereas good mid range torque will in most cases be the faster car. Will always be easier to drive

[jacobrjett]

thanks for the input mr revhead

how much does a cert generally cost? would I need a "high volume" cert??

fail wof without cert right?

[Leon]

$400-$500

[jacobrjett]

sorry should have looked that up on my own cheers though

[MilfHunter]

yea thats wat im thinking i mean once its there its there, so im not expecting it to suddenly become better - but i am adamant that you can barely hear it when its warmed up. well, lets say the knock is coming and going.

dont get me wrong I understand when it comes to rod knock, its $&#$% and its not going to fix itself. but it definately seems to come and go.

im wondering if the builder used the wrong size bearings or something, and the knock is coming and going due to it sometimes getting oil pressure in the bearings and sometimes not...

either that or the oil pump should have been replaced.

If the sizes were wrong it would have knocked from the 1st start. Once a B/E bearing goes it will only get worse till the rod lets go.
Sounds like you have a failing oil pump or a sticky relief valve to me

Can someone explain how you can keep driving with an oil light on? Sure momentary on a track under braking etc is understandable.

There's nothing to stop you from dropping the sump and opening the caps to inspect the shells, if 1 or more is damaged you can change them yourself before you grenade the motor.
Hook up an oil pressure gauge to see whats up with the pump, clean the relief too while the sumps off

[4agtepwr]

Put an oil pressure gauge on it and have a look at oil pressure, the vvt pulleys make more of a rattle than a knock. Also you can do an oil change and cut the old filter open, if you can see gold or metallic specs in there you have problems. That crank measured mint, what rods did you use and had they been resized?, When you first cranked it did you have the plugs out till the oil light went out? I went and pressure lubed a 4agte I built for a guys race car today, It would make 70 psi on the starter with the plugs out, As a new 4age should with the right bearing clearances and a oil pump that is in good condition.

[jacobrjett]

If the sizes were wrong it would have knocked from the 1st start. Once a B/E bearing goes it will only get worse till the rod lets go.
Sounds like you have a failing oil pump or a sticky relief valve to me

Can someone explain how you can keep driving with an oil light on? Sure momentary on a track under braking etc is understandable.

its comes on when i first start for a second or two most of the time. otherwise, sometimes it goes on and off for around 30 seconds. this is when it makes the knock noise. however once it warms up it goes away.

I do not drive it around with the oil light on.

Tomorrow ill pull the sump, check the bearings, and check out the oil pump.

[jacobrjett]

Put an oil pressure gauge on it and have a look at oil pressure, the vvt pulleys make more of a rattle than a knock. Also you can do an oil change and cut the old filter open, if you can see gold or metallic specs in there you have problems. That crank measured mint, what rods did you use and had they been resized?, When you first cranked it did you have the plugs out till the oil light went out? I went and pressure lubed a 4agte I built for a guys race car today, It would make 70 psi on the starter with the plugs out, As a new 4age should with the right bearing clearances and a oil pump that is in good condition.

ill see if i can get the gauge on and do the oil change - I used silvertop conrods, i have no idea if they have been resized as im not the mechanic here but i gave them to my mechanic and asked if they would fit and he said they would be ok. yeah i had the plugs out to get the oil pressure up when i first started it.

[allencr]

Tomorrow ill pull the sump, check the bearings, and check out the oil pump.

Look for the source/area that the noise is coming from first, then open up the filter.
Bearing noise NEVER goes away except for the half-dozen knocks you'll get on an engine with loose bearings that's very dry/drained, and disappears in a second or three with oil pressure.
Don't pull the sump, you don't know what you're looking at!

[MilfHunter]

30 seconds is a loong time for a light to be on - scary

If the bearings look OK, put some plastigauge in and see what the clearances are.
This sounds weird & I'm wondering if the noise isn't something else, ie piston slap or small end knock, vvt knock etc - do you know someone who can give a 2nd opinion?

[jacobrjett]

i do have a vauge idea what to look for when pulling the sump, id check the rods for excessive play and then pull the bearings and check them for scarring... and make sure the journals are smooth... not a clue on the oil pump thing though. i have pulled a sump before.

i took it round to the guy who built it and he said that if it was a bearing knock, the noise wouldnt disappear after its warmed up, like some of you have also said. i tried my best to show him the noise but literally couldnt hear it because it was warm from driving it to his shop. after it cooled down for half an hour or so, started it and you could just hear it, it was coming from the belt side, he thought that if I pulled the powersteering and alternator belts off one at a time it would go away, and perhaps my oil pressure switch is faulty, i thought the chance of an ancillary failure and oil switch failure happening together was absurd so were going to hook up the oil gauge tomorrow and go from there.

oil pressure light only comes on when its cold too. when i start it after its warmed off, absolutely no problem.

[jacobrjett]

Bearing noise NEVER goes away except for the half-dozen knocks you'll get on an engine with loose bearings that's very dry/drained, and disappears in a second or three with oil pressure.

is this that kind of knock that some cars make on the first 1-2 seconds on startup? my car and my girlfriends car both do that.

This car makes that noise, it goes away and is quiet on idle after starting, then when i raise the revs to around 2800 you can hear the knock, its a bit fainter and more rattley then knocky, but after its warmed up its gone.

one of my theories is low oil pressure is meaning the bearings are staying dry for a longer amount of time. eventually it frees up again and goes back to normal when warmed up. but im not the mechanic here lol

im going to take it around to the mechanics tomorrow and we are going to have a go at it and i will update whats going on tomorrow

[Shrike]

What oil are you running atm?

Also the crank you used from memory was factory and when it was rebuilt they would have checked bearing clearances

What bearings are you running oem or acl etc?

Also was the bottom end all balanced?

if things arent right it should happen from day one

And Ive killed bearings before rattle will be on start and wont go away when warm

[jacobrjett]

yeah last bearing i run it wouldnt go away, but it was a spun bearing fully rooted i believe, im wondering if this is just rattling because the bearings are dry from low oil pressure

[4agtepwr]

Balance will have nothing whatsoever to do with it. Bearing brand won't either providing it had the correct clearance. You have an oil pump issue if the oil pressure light comes back on with the engine running. Bearings shouldn't ever touch the crank when the engine is running. The oil develops a hydrodynamic wedge between the the bearing and journal. As soon as you loose oil pressure when the engine is running the bearing will contact the journal, scuff, overheat basically destroy it. You have some big issues if the oil light is coming back on when its running. If you keep running it like that you will wreck the crank and the rods as well.

[rollaholic]

presuming your oil light issues are caused by actual low pressure and not electrical gremlins.

[jacobrjett]

right so once the bearings run out of oil they get $&#$%, and are $&#$% permanently, that has not happened so it doesnt seem like its the bearings anymore

we are now thinking that its the oil pressure sender unit is taking the piss, ive got some brass fittings/adaptors and a mechanical oil gauge to check the oil pressure tomorrow, my mechanic thinks I still have oil pressure. If i did not have oil pressure, it would have $&#$% out completely and right away.

have also noticed the vvt pulley is leaking a bit of oil out the side. so we are now wondering if its just the VVT pulley, and the oil pressure sender switch taking the piss at the same time by chance. a much better ending by the sounds of it.

should be able to confirm this tomorrow.

anyone know how bad a rattley vvt pulley is for the engine? i can probably drive it for a while right if im just going to replace it?

[rollaholic]

i'd want to be pretty certain the sensor, plug and associated wiring were 110% before testing oil pressure. its not hard to get something slightly wrong while removing / installing engines and cause these type of issues.

if its regularly bringing the light on for 30 seconds and that was really being caused by low pressure i think you'd be having some pretty serious problems by this point.

[jacobrjett]

yea it seems like i have fine oil pressure. ive still been driving it around lol, i figured if it was going to $&#$% out then at least i would have something to show him/say you can fix this. (i did tell him about the issue before i continued driving, i wasnt just going to deliberately $&#$% it up, he seemed to think if the oil pump was faulty they just jam and completely stop working altogether, and that the behaviour is unusal for a oil pump)

still running like a cut cat.

and it doesnt stay on solidly for 30 seconds, it just kind of flashes for a period of time after starting. thats extended to a few minutes now, but its just flashing intermittently. like there could be a short in the wire or something.

must just be chance that the pulley has started rattling at the same time! bloody cars

[jacobrjett]

alright she well and truly $&#$% out today, started knocking like the neighbours at a loud party, heard all sorts of grinding clattering and clanging!

took it to the mechanic and said see i told you something was up with it lol,

he has acknowledged his fault and is going to rebuild the block free of charge, and im going to insist on a new oil pump this time!

he has said that i should remove the engine myself because I only bought him a long block, but after a bit of convincing he is allowing me to take the engine out myself but with his help at his shop with his hoist etc. so all is well. im strangely happy for a person whos new engine just blew though lol (well, i was guttered before because i thought i was going to have to replace the pulleys and get a wiring issue fixed which would cost money, and now im getting a fresh block again!)

will probably flick it off after its running perfect again, thinking about a turbo starlet or a soarer.