DS2500 vs DS3000 vs something else brake pads?

[cat007]

Hi all

I've got Ferodo DS2500 pads currently. Haven't used them on the track yet but I went with them because they're still quite good on the street and when cold.

I saw on the 'what did you do on your car today' thread CAMB01 said he 'cooked' some DS2500's pretty quickly.
CAMB01 can you go into a bit more detail? Were they fresh pads before you started your track runs? How do you mean cooked? Melted and started coming apart and off the back plates or?

Has anyone dealt with the DS2500's and DS3000 pads on street and a bit of track time?

[Mr Ree]

I think "2JZGTE" might have bought some of the 3000's for the last track day, and they completely destroyed a set of rotors, so I wouldnt be going near them in a heavy car.

What do you need pads for? Track days only, or for both street and track? It is very difficult to have the best of both worlds when you own a heavy car, as the brakes take an absolute hiding if you want to push hard.

[cat007]

I think "2JZGTE" might have bought some of the 3000's for the last track day, and they completely destroyed a set of rotors, so I wouldnt be going near them in a heavy car.

What do you need pads for? Track days only, or for both street and track? It is very difficult to have the best of both worlds when you own a heavy car, as the brakes take an absolute hiding if you want to push hard.

Ah - yeah I was worried that the 3000's would be very harsh on rotors.

I need a pad that'll do both street and some track work - and yeah, in a supra which weighs in at just under 1500kg.....

[Mr Ree]

What sort of track work? 2 or 3 lap sessions, or longer?

That will help you determine what will suit best, as doing 2 hot laps wont stress the braking system anywhere near as much as 5 or 6.

I think the key for whale owners, is to either have 2 entirely different setups for each role, or accept that you should only do a couple of hot laps in a row, then circulate for another lap at pace, but without using the brakes, and then go at it again. Its crucial to give them a break or they just get to critical temps, and thats where all the destructive damage happens.

I run the Mintex 1166 compound, and while they dont work too well on the street, they have served me extremely well for the past 6 years of track days. But I also hardly ever use my car on the street, and if I do, it tends to be a decent drive, rather than popping down to the shops. If you do lots of short trips, these arent for you as they dust and wear alot if not up to temp.

If you decide you want some, throw me a PM, and Ill help you source them for a better price than Race Rapes, sorry Race Brakes

[cat007]

Thanks

I was using the Mintex 1166 compound on my stock supra brakes a while back. They melted and destroyed themselves after a short period of time. I was running slicks though so that probably didn't help their life span haha.

I didn't find them too dusty or wear too much on the street - on the track though I must've overheated them.

I don't plan on doing long sessions at the track. The idea being I can take the car down to open track days and do a few laps at pace then come into the pits for an hour or so.

Can you get other pads? Like the Ferodo 2500's?

[~SlideWays~]

Very different car but I run DS3000's in my AE92 GTZ turbo around 950kg, still with standard single pots and factory discs, but with Motul 600 fluid.

They work very well on the road even from cold and quite well on the track, after half a dozen hard laps the pedal would start to feel soft and a bit less bite but they never stopped working like previous pads. Which is pretty damn good considering the rest of the brakes are standard.

Even in a light car they eat the discs.

The brake dust eats into alloy too by the looks of it.

I'm upgrading to Wilwoods later but have been impressed with DS3000's. I paid around $350 for a front set a few years ago.

[cat007]

Very different car but I run DS3000's in my AE92 GTZ turbo around 950kg, still with standard single pots and factory discs, but with Motul 600 fluid.

They work very well on the road even from cold and quite well on the track, after half a dozen hard laps the pedal would start to feel soft and a bit less bite but they never stopped working like previous pads. Which is pretty damn good considering the rest of the brakes are standard.

Even in a light car they eat the discs.

The brake dust eats into alloy too by the looks of it.

I'm upgrading to Wilwoods later but have been impressed with DS3000's. I paid around $350 for a front set a few years ago.

Yeah I use the Motul 600, (actually I think its 660 fluid?). But when I melted my brakes at Puke I also boiled that fluid (right before hitting the wall on the other side of the gravel trap). But that was all down to stock rotors (only 300mm) and single pot calipers.

I've got Wilwood 4 pots at the moment with the 350Z 'track rotor' which I think is 330x32mm. I haven't used the 2500's on the track yet. Hope to soon!

Not a fan of the 3000's if they eat rotors

[Mr Ree]

Thanks

I was using the Mintex 1166 compound on my stock supra brakes a while back. They melted and destroyed themselves after a short period of time. I was running slicks though so that probably didn't help their life span haha.

I didn't find them too dusty or wear too much on the street - on the track though I must've overheated them.

I don't plan on doing long sessions at the track. The idea being I can take the car down to open track days and do a few laps at pace then come into the pits for an hour or so.

Can you get other pads? Like the Ferodo 2500's?

What is your stock supra brake setup? And how many laps were you doing to overheat them to the point of melting? Do you have ducting/backing plates?

I always run full slicks, and have never once overheated mine at any of the track days Ive attended in the last few years. I would say I push to 85-90%, as I cant afford to fix it if it gets damaged, nor be throwing pads and rotors at it every track day. I get a spongy pedal when the car comes back in and sits for a while, due to fluid getting hot(RBF600), but I never have to bleed my brakes during the day, and when I go back out, they work fine again.

I think that alot of people attending track days expect far too much out of their setups and push them far too hard for what they were designed to cope with, so its no surprise that things overheat and get damaged.

I know that if I was far more aggressive when on track, I could do the same, but I cant see the point in doing that just for a track FUN day. If my wallet was larger, I wouldnt hesitate to just buy a bigger brake set up that can cope with the thermal loads, and also employ ducting and water cooling etc to guarantee its always going to be at its optimal temperature, but until then...I drive according to my budget.

[Bazda]

I run the Wilwood Polymatric C pad, dad has used them for years racing.
They last a whole season and dont eat discs. His discs have been on the car for 2 years+. They are just OEM mitsi 3000gt discs.
Dad runs Ferodo DS on the rear and they wear out way before the fronts do!! but its the only pad he can get for the style of caliper he runs.

Best pad we have used vs how much you pay for them. A set to suit your superlites is approx $280.

[cat007]

Stock supra setup was just stock rotors, stock calipers and the mintex 1166 pads with RBF660 fluid and braided front brake lines. Rear everything was stock (well, except for fluid obviously).

I probably pushed a lot harder than I should've with that set up - and that's probably the main reason they failed. I had no ducting. What do you mean by backing plates? On the backs of the pads?

That's not bad. I think I paid about $240 for the DS2500's from racebrakes.

Might have to take you up on the offer of those pads at some point, once my 2500's have worn.

[Mr Ree]

Is the caliper set up 2/1 on your A70? And what diameter rotors?

By backing plates, I meant dust/stone shields for the rotors. They trap alot of heat.

Is there room for ducting to fit? If so, I would recommend it as anything you can do to help keep temps under control is a good thing.

[cat007]

Is the caliper set up 2/1 on your A70? And what diameter rotors?

By backing plates, I meant dust/stone shields for the rotors. They trap alot of heat.

Is there room for ducting to fit? If so, I would recommend it as anything you can do to help keep temps under control is a good thing.

The stock setup is a single pot sliding caliper for front and rear. The stock rotors were only 297mm and I think only 28mm thick.

I think I did still have the stock dust/stone shields in place at the time. They're gone now though.

Yeah there should be room for ducting. In fact I'm positive there is. I just don't know what to use for it though. Suggestions? Can probably only get away with less than 70mm diameter I'd say though. don't have a whole heap of room under there....

[Mr Ree]

Something is better than nothing, but if using 70mm, you want to try and have the absolute best entrance to the ducting to force as much air through as possible.

When installing it, you want to have the ducting installed in the smoothest manner possible with as little tight bends as possible.

You want to have the ducting pointing to the centre of the rotor so the air is being forced through the vanes, rather than onto the face of the rotor.

You can buy proper heat resistant spring coiled ducting that is perfect for the job. I havent looked into where you can buy it here, but a quick google should see you right. I would be looking at places that service race/rally cars.

[matt dunn]

I run the Wilwood Polymatric C pad, dad has used them for years racing.
They last a whole season and dont eat discs. His discs have been on the car for 2 years+.

When I changed our brakes around we run Project Mu pads front and rear,
but they stopped too well on the rear and we could not stop it locking back brakes,
so we went back the the Willwood polymatric pad in the rear as they are not as good.

The Project Mu lasted 2 seasons of racing on the front and we are still on the same disc's,
and the Wilwoods on the rears lasted almost 2 seasons and we are on the second set of disc's,
but they wern't replaced due to wear.

We have also recently added a residual pressure valve which has made a massive difference to pedal feel,
but probably doesn't actually make the brakes any better other than possibly keeing some temp in them.

Has anyone else tried Project Mu pads in anything?

[Mr Ree]

I have a set of Project Mu front pads for my JZA80, that were used briefly before I got them, and Im not sure on the exact compound, so I have been considering getting some sent over from Oz to try out as some of the reviews on certain versions are overflowing with praise for them.

[CAMB01]

Ive used both 2500 and 3000 pads on the track, and yes they were brand new pads. They were pretty good, but I'm quite aggressive under brakes and I couldnt get anymore than 3 laps out of them at Manfield. Pedal would still be hard but braking would be greatly reduced when hot. The pads were flaking and cracking. Yes 3000's do absolutely destroy rotors. Ive got a set that are pretty much scrap metal after about 20 laps.
My car might have been a bit heavy for them as well. Ive got the 2500's on the Mirage now and that has helped with the braking on hillclimbs and street sprints as they are alright from cold but they work really well with a bit of temp in them.

[Bazda]

Whats a set of Project Mu pads worth?

I did try Endless pads once, they were real good but ate my discs pretty badly.

How well they bite depends on the pad coefficient. The polymatrix pads come in about 5 different compounds. All depends how your brakes are setup to determine what coefficient you need. I tried the Polymatrix A and all I did was lock wheels as soon as the pedal was touched. The C seems to feel real nice and a lot of our customers also like it.
http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/BrakePadsApp.aspx

[Boosted_162]

Whats a set of Project Mu pads worth?

I did try Endless pads once, they were real good but ate my discs pretty badly.

How well they bite depends on the pad coefficient. The polymatrix pads come in about 5 different compounds. All depends how your brakes are setup to determine what coefficient you need. I tried the Polymatrix A and all I did was lock wheels as soon as the pedal was touched. The C seems to feel real nice and a lot of our customers also like it.
http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/BrakePadsApp.aspx

I paid $319 for a set of PMU Racing 999 for GTR front Brembo. Found the bite to be amazing (also ran PMU rotors) but didn't run long enough to find wear. They were annoyingly noisy for road use, but it doesn't take much noise to annoy me! For a track car I wouldn't hesitate to use them, and I know quite a few GTR guys run them with much praise.

[touge_ae101]

Good pads and braking setups will always chew disc's. Generally it is accepted that for every set of good pads you'll go through 1-2 sets of rotors.

If you look at euro car brakes this is exactly how they work.

Endless are fantastic if you get the heat range right. Also try putting some ducting in as keeping temperatures down to a manageable level makes a big difference to pad/rotor wear.
Haven't had experience with PMU but have heard very good things. We use hawks in the racecar and if you can get a pad that fits (some are too thick and VERY hard to machine down to size). Have used Wilwood polymatrix A which are OK but wear quickly.


If you do some research on the pad coefficients and operating temperatures against another known good pad, figure out what you need then your best bet is to buy them off summit.

[pc]

Good pads and braking setups will always chew disc's. Generally it is accepted that for every set of good pads you'll go through 1-2 sets of rotors.

Agree. What's people's problems with replacing disks? Disks are just a consumable just like the pads.

I run DS3000s on my corolla and are on my 4th or 5th set. Front pads cost about $270 per set and front rotors about $90 for 2. I would prefer that the pads last longer than the rotors.
On my car the brakes do get too hot when on the track for a number of laps on slicks, but I am running stock single pot calipers on stock 243mm rotors. Ducted cooling would probably help them last a bit longer, which I don't have.

DS3000s dust heaps and it is very corrosive. clean the wheels regularly if you want to keep them looking good.

Braking from cold is ok, but much better after one moderate brake.