bearings problem.

RomanV · Post by **RomanV** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:40 pm

Regarding a gen 4 3sge.

I ordered my mains bearings, based on the numbers on the block and the crank.

Lynn Rogers said that this is how I should go about it, they dont need measuring.

A few other people confirmed this too.

Now, when I drop the crank in, and nip up the bolts, the crank becomes impossible to turn. It should spin freely, right?

Could this be caused by having too much assembly lube on the bearings?

Otherwise, perhaps I need different sized bearings.

RomanV · Post by **RomanV** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:26 pm

I just torqued everything up, and it wont budge at all.

Its well and truly stuck in there.

no_8wire · Post by **no_8wire** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:36 pm

These the ones you had to wait for from Japan?

how unfortunate....

RomanV · Post by **RomanV** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Yeah.

Its all a bit gutting really.

vvega · Post by **vvega** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:17 pm

did you clean the back of the bearins wirh meths ??
check your thrusts are installed correctly

im gunna be up in aucks tomorrow if ya want me to have a quick looksee

v

v

RomanV · Post by **RomanV** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:44 pm

I cleaned everything with Kero.

The thrusts were fine, they were my first suspicion.

My old mans mate is coming over soon with his micrometers etc, so hopefully that will shed some light on the matter.

Thanks for the offer Vvega, I will PM you later if I need some help.

JasonZE · Post by **JasonZE** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:05 pm

You really need to plasti-gauge the bearings to measure clearance.

Have you got all the caps the right way around (no sure if you can get it wrong) try torquing the caps one by one and see if they are all tight or just one.

You most likely have the wrong bearings for that engine as if it has had any work done before the crank will be smaller and clearnces to loose rather than tight.

vvega · Post by **vvega** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:10 pm

JasonZE wrote:You really need to plasti-gauge the bearings to measure clearance.

Have you got all the caps the right way around (no sure if you can get it wrong) try torquing the caps one by one and see if they are all tight or just one.

You most likely have the wrong bearings for that engine as if it has had any work done before the crank will be smaller and clearnces to loose rather than tight.

all of that is really goood advice

also if you refer to the manual it will giv you the crank size based off teh block number
that will be helpfull if your gunna mic it up

v

matt dunn · Post by **matt dunn** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:16 pm

I have also had this problem when assembling my 4AGE engine.

I am still not sure what the exact problem was but I believe it was the thrust bearings not in correctly as they must have moved when I placed the crank in.

I dismantled and reassembled twice, and the third time it was sweet as and now spins free.

Matt

vvega · Post by **vvega** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:25 pm

funny the thrusts seam to catch a few people out matt as do putting teh caps on backwards

remeber roman you want the arrows to be pointing to teh front of the engine "not towards the clutch"
im guesing you got all the numering right too

v

RomanV · Post by **RomanV** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:29 pm

Yep the numbering is fine, the caps are around the right way, and it binds up with or without the thrust bearings in.

fivebob · Post by **fivebob** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:34 pm

Plastigauge it and see what the clearance is.

If all the numbers are right and the clearance is correct, then time to check the crank is straight and the bearings in the block are in line.

matt dunn · Post by **matt dunn** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:45 pm

RomanV wrote: nip up the bolts, the crank becomes impossible to turn.

torque them all down so they are the same, even at a low setting.

matt

RomanV · Post by **RomanV** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:51 pm

The bearings are nipping on the sides, you can see the wear marks.

We found that two of the 'seats' for the bearings in the block had a small lip on the edge, so when the bearings were in the correct place, it was bumping up over the lip, which was pushing the bearings slightly inwards.

We filed these down, and now the crank freely rotates when there is no caps on, which it didnt do before.

However when the caps are on, (and torqued down) it's still really tight.

I have yet to plastigauge it, but we mic'd everything, and they were all within spec. (I'll plastigauge it tonight though.)

I wouldnt mind a visit tomorrow Vvega, so Ive PM'd you about it.

Ive got my Dads mate over who is an engineer/engine builder, and he's miffed about the whole thing.

He thinks that the machine that stamps the 'anti spin' recess into the bearings is deforming the edge of the bearing, causing it to stick... because that is where it seems to be wearing on the bearing when you rotate it.

This is all rather strange, considering that the engine did about 100,000kms before it grenaded itself... perhaps the state of the bottom end was a contributing factor?

Can extreme detonation warp the crank or block, or anything like that?
Bearing(heh) in mind that it is an NA motor.

vvega · Post by **vvega** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:37 am

no probs me an allfours have to go get my tig so i can do some welding for him so well pop by on the way

Skidman · Post by **Skidman** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:43 am

I thought that you would have checked the crank for runout?
Put the two end caps and bearings in with no bearings or caps through the middle and run a DTI gague on the center main on the crank. I think that anything under 5tho is alright (just from memory)
Might be your prob aye.

vvega · Post by **vvega** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:31 pm

Skidman wrote:I thought that you would have checked the crank for runout?
Put the two end caps and bearings in with no bearings or caps through the middle and run a DTI gague on the center main on the crank. I think that anything under 5tho is alright (just from memory)
Might be your prob aye.

5 thou is a massive amount
there really shouldnt be any at all
v

vvega · Post by **vvega** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:50 pm

fivebob wrote:Plastigauge it and see what the clearance is.

If all the numbers are right and the clearance is correct, then time to check the crank is straight and the bearings in the block are in line.

fivebob can you please repost that scan of the gen4 bearing numbers
it woudl apear that they have selected the bearings based off the gen 3 ones ans from the half cut off photocopy i saw round at davids they would seam to be different to a gen4

his block numbers are 33333
his crank numbers are 00011

he has got 33344 bearings in acordance to the gen 3 manuel they were working off but from the copy i saw they might have spose to have been

11122

can you confun this please i havent personall had a lot to do with the gen4 motors yet

cheers

RomanV · Post by **RomanV** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:16 pm

Yeah Thanks for the help today Wayne, much appreciated.

The bearing information is in this thread, and was as follows:

Fivebob also said this, in the bearings thread:

Main Bearing mark #'s need a bit more work if you don't have the old bearings. Ignore the bearing # in the following table as it doesn't make sense. Add the crankshaft and block #'s together to get the bearing #

I think it is wrong to ignore the block + crank numbers, and the table above appears to be correct, for the *gen 4 only*.

Perhaps it is unwise to suggest that people should get the bearing numbers by adding the block + crank numbers together, as this isnt always the case, as per the table above.

Perhaps we should get this revised in the FAQ?

vvega · Post by **vvega** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:25 pm

Main Bearing mark #'s need a bit more work if you don't have the old bearings. Ignore the bearing # in the following table as it doesn't make sense. Add the crankshaft and block #'s together to get the bearing #

now thats making even more confuding

add them together and you get

33333
00011
33344

i hate random bits of paper

ill do some more looking now

v

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